can we discuss feminism please

Yes, good point trisher. I know of women my DD's age who insist they are not feminists. We only have to think back to Thatcher for the damage women can do to women.

Sorry that is just nonsense. So transwomen have experienced discrimination and women havent. In terms of all women shortlists they were designed to overcome the barriers of sex discrimination not to put women you agree with in power.

Exactly, Galaxy.

And trisher, I think that it is absolutely the point. I am not arguing for arguing's sake.

I agree that not all women are feminist, but that is not the point, when it comes to employing women in an all-female shortlist. As has been said, they are rare, and exist only when women are (a) necessary to the role and (b) under-represented, so to dilute that by saying that a self-identifying man can do the job just as well is as ridiculous as it is anti-feminist.

I think that's an argument against all women shortlists rather an argument for the inclusion of transwomen. So some men (gay, black, straight, white, whatever) will have beliefs on abortion, equal pay etc that are more progressive than some women, therefore those men should be on all women shortlists. I am quite conflicted on all women shortlists as a concept but I understand why they were created.

They shouldn't be necessary, but where they are, it would be wrong, IMO, to allow them to be circumvented by allowing a man to self-identify as female and be allowed to join them.

Galaxy

Sorry that is just nonsense. So transwomen have experienced discrimination and women havent. In terms of all women shortlists they were designed to overcome the barriers of sex discrimination not to put women you agree with in power.

Some women will have experienced discrimination, some won't have, particularly early in their career. They may experience it at some point in ther lives.
Most transpeople will have experienced it.
The barriers of sex discrimination are not limited to natal women, they are experienced by trans people as well.
Does feminism not then have a certain political aim? And how does a woman who is anti-abortion advance feminism?

One question which occurs to me is would a transman be acceptable on a women-only short list?

Why would a transman who identifies out of their womanhood, want to be on a women only shortlist representing women? I can't see that situation ever arising except in fantasy land.

Gay men have experienced discrimination, black men have experienced discrimination, why should they not be in those shortlists.
Your belief that transwomen would support aims that support women is naive as well, caitlin Jenner supported trump for a long time, India Willoughby mocks women who dont shave their legs, dont present in a feminine way, etc, and Eddie Izzard is claiming to be a lesbian. Its naive to think transwomen will hold progressive views in the same way its naive to think all women will.

I love the way when I ask a question that they can't answer the anti-trans people on here refer to it as "fantasy land" . This after they have posted imaginary scenarios of women being forced to share showers with what they refer to as "intact men". I have never shared a shower with anyone since my secondary school days when I was forced to do so with other girls and we all hated it, so the shower sharing is completely fantasy land. Whereas the situation of a transman having the right to be on a woman only shortlist should they wish to is actually the situation the belief that birth gender cannot be changed lands us in. Of course some transmen may be honourable enough to not do so, but who is to say if the opportunity came to advance themselves every transman would have such scruples? If you don't trust transwomen why on earth would you trust transmen?

Galaxy I don't think I said all transwomen are left wing or progressive. I simply presented a case where the best interests of feminism were served by a transwoman. It is just as naive to imagine that all women support feminism. I could post a list of the women Trump used to progress his agenda but frankly I can't be bothered. It's irrelevant and nothing to do with the discussion which is would you rather have a right wing reactionary woman or a left wing feminist transwoman?

Then why would I not have a progressive gay man, black man etc. That's an arguement against womens shortlist not an arguement to include transwomen. I would have no problem with transmen on a womans shortlist. Why would I. It's like saying would I have a problem with women with short hair on a womans shortlist.

I dont have issues with people because they are trans, I have issues with men in womens sex segregated spaces.

I do have an issue however with the spelling of argument.

I do find it a bit odd that someone who is living as a man, presumably has all the advantaages of doing that can then use a process meant to advance women for their own benefit whereas someone who is living as a woman and presumably has encountered all the problems associated with this is barred from using the same process.

It seems that for trans people they are not allowed anywhere. They aren't included in the group with their gender identity, but they aren't included by their physiology either.

What DO the those who don't support them suggest they do?

Bl**dy typing. Excuse the errors pls.

‘Some women will have experienced discrimination, some won't have’
Some black people will have experienced discrimination, some won’t have
Some gay people will have experienced discrimination, some won’t have
Some people with disabilities will have experienced discrimination, some won’t have
I think all of the above is incorrect because we can all have an experience that we are unaware is discriminatory.

If any one has undertaken race equality training you will know that the starting point is with your inherent racism, unintentional it maybe, however it is in us all including those who will or have been discriminated against. E.g. just because someone is gay does not mean they are not homophobic.

We know from research that discrimination comes in many forms and guises which is why we have in place the Equalities Act 2010, intended to protect us ALL but does it?

I think the trans movement is financed by the drug companies that profit from those who will spend a life time needing their drugs and by the Men’s Rights movement.

I believe it is by design that the Women’s movement has been split, that women rights are being erased, that even the identity of ‘female’, ‘woman’ is being redefined. My father, born 1920, who was a supporter of the women’s movement once said to me, most men want women to be, pregnant, bare foot and tied to the kitchen sink because that prevents independence, freedom of movement and them forming a sisterhood that can organise to challenge the status quo.

That was and still is the agenda...Equal Pay Act is still not being applied and that is only the tip of the iceberg.

I think a feminist is a woman who champions the rights of women and as science is clear that it is not possible to change sex then that means biological women. Men, like my father, and my sons, can support the feminist cause just as I, as a white person can support the ‘Black Lives Matter’ cause.

Men who feel that they are female have the right to present and express themselves as they wish and I want the world to accept that. That means that a man in a dress ought to use the Gents and if he is met with toxic masculinity then we need to address that.

Feminists need to organise, as we always have, around what is good for women and support men to address the toxic masculinity that is a curse to everyone and the planet.

trisher

I love the way when I ask a question that they can't answer the anti-trans people on here refer to it as "fantasy land" . This after they have posted imaginary scenarios of women being forced to share showers with what they refer to as "intact men". I have never shared a shower with anyone since my secondary school days when I was forced to do so with other girls and we all hated it, so the shower sharing is completely fantasy land. Whereas the situation of a transman having the right to be on a woman only shortlist should they wish to is actually the situation the belief that birth gender cannot be changed lands us in. Of course some transmen may be honourable enough to not do so, but who is to say if the opportunity came to advance themselves every transman would have such scruples? If you don't trust transwomen why on earth would you trust transmen?

trisher you persist in your baseless and offensive accusations. I am not anti trans and I didn't say a transman couldn't apply for a place on an all women shortlist, I just don't believe it would happen. However if one did, then yes as a biological female they would qualify. I would greatly suspect their motives though having transgendered and now wanting to be considered a woman.
Just because you've not used communal changing rooms or showers since school doesn't mean they don't exist and is completely fantasy land. It's not a matter of not trusting transwomen, it's the whole self ID that is the problem. The move to that any man can just declare that today he's a woman and should be admitted to all female areas is cause for concern. Why do you think there is legislation permitting single sex space exemptions in the equality act?

Transmen really dont have the advantages of a man. They have been socialised as girls for a start. They may be affected by pregnancy and its impact on pay etc. They may be affected by issues relating to maternity pay, treatment during birth, etc. It is why transwomen dominate the discussion and their needs are focussed on and transmen are barely mentioned despite female to Male now being much more prevalent. I dont think there could be a better example of the influence of sex than the difference between the treatment of transwomen and transmen.

Actually Galaxy I think the reason transmen are never mentioned in this argument is because they present too many difficulties for the "you have to stay what you were designated at birth" argument.
One of my GDs friends has insisted she was a boy since she was 3 (I'm using 'she" for simplification). She uses a boy's version of her name, always wears trousers, has short hair and takes part in most physical activities as a boy. Most people who meet her think she is a boy. So she is being socialised as a boy. I imagine she will transition asap. So her life experience will be male.

MBHP1 If you don't understand that trans is not just about wearing a dress there isn't much point in debating anything with you.

Rosie51 of course communal changing rooms exist but no one is forcing anyone to use them. And actually I am completely against them because I have no wish to change in the presence of a stranger whatever their gender. The fantasy is that anyone will be forced to use them.

I've said before that a feminist for me is someone who believes that the patriachy must be challenged and changed. And if someone stands besde me and supports the same ideas, I have no intention of inspecting their genitals, or asking for their birth certificate.

I am aware I am quite out of date now. But when I had contacts with the LGBTIQ community, I lost count of the number of transmen I came into contact with, in comparison to only two transwomen. This has been bourne out in my school experience two. All the trans children I worked with were m2f, and only one f2m.

And yet, the MSM and anti trans groups almost exclusively focus on transwomen.

Argh! Not two, too.

Oh yes, trisher!

i love it when I ask a question on here they can’t answer, the anti trans people On here refer to it as fantasy land

I don’t see posts from say Doodle, petunia and Galaxy for example as “anti-trans”. I don’t identify as anti-trans. Of course threads meander, as issues relevant to the OP occur. Why is it that every thread started recently with feminism at its core is dominated by arguments that trans people have a harder time than any ‘natal’ or ‘cis’ woman.