can we discuss feminism please

trisher, which disabled facilities did you mean in your post of 11.52?

Also, would you always put the rights of transpeople (approximately 1% of the population) ahead of the rights of women (approximately 51%)? And if so, why is that?

I did address transmen accessing male spaces in my post of 11.32.

It isn't putting them ahead to give equal rights. This is the whole equal marriage debate again.

GagaJo

I haven't been into a communal changing room in the US, UK, China, Spain or Switzerland in at least the last 10 years. I apprecitate they still exist but they must surely be just about gone?

On one hand, trans individuals are being shut out of accessing help, because the places that do offer it face court challenges and potential shut down. Then on the other hand, the requirement that only fully 'transitioned' (by which I assume means hormones & surgery) individuals gain access to single sex spaces.

Communal showers/changing rooms are still around in the military, in prisons and in sports facilities (eg football training rooms), even though they are no longer popular in clothes shops.

GagaJo

It isn't putting them ahead to give equal rights. This is the whole equal marriage debate again.

It is 'putting them ahead' if the rights of women to have safe single sex spaces is removed, as well as the right to women-only shortlists etc, and their very existence as female is compromised to accommodate the needs of a very small number of people.

Trisher: “I see no-one is gong to address the issue of a man accessing women's spaces simply by claiming to be transman.”

Because probably no man has felt threatened by such a presence in the way that some women do when a trans woman accesses their space, the issue has not needed to be addressed in the same way.

Also, as far as I can see I am the first man to have ventured on this thread.

My very existence is definitely not affected by trans people. I don't know anyone who would feel that way. Not even my much, much older lesbian friends who worked in the lesbian support group. I DO appreciate that like attracts like tho (echo chamber) so other than online, I don't hear opposite opinions.

I assume grumpaa is welcome? I think a male perspective is a good extension. How do others feel?

They might trisher, no system is foolproof, female spaces segregated by sex are a layer of safety privacy and dignity for women, if you take that away and also take away womens right to say no, to say that consent is only allowed if it doesn't make men unhappy then you making things very uncomfortable for women.

And toilets are very easily solved, you provide sex segregated and mixed sex toilets or a single enclosed toilet with sink. This does not solve the problems of sport prisons refuges etc. It also doesnt solve the problem of transmen and transwomen receiving substandard care, those horrible feminists keep highlighting this, but nobody seems to care.

grumppa

*Trisher*: “I see no-one is gong to address the issue of a man accessing women's spaces simply by claiming to be transman.”

Because probably no man has felt threatened by such a presence in the way that some women do when a trans woman accesses their space, the issue has not needed to be addressed in the same way.

Also, as far as I can see I am the first man to have ventured on this thread.

Quite so, grumppa, and I did address trisher's point earlier in the thread, but clearly she missed it.

Gaga my very existence is not threatened either. The existence of 'female' as a sex is under threat, however, if people can be defined as such on the grounds of gender. There is a difference, which I thought would have been clear to anyone not deliberately trying to misunderstand.

Galaxy how has anyone not advocated the very best care for all transpeople? I could say that the very best care does not always involve transitional surgery, that any surgery should always be the choice of the individual and not forced on someone because they wish to live as a different gender, especially as conditions such as hypertension, coronary disease and other health problems actually make such surgery difficult. Not to mention the wait for such services. During which time the person wishing to transition may suffer from depression and even contemplate suicide. How this is providing "care" for transpeople I don't understand.
Doodledog
If there are such a small number how on earth can they threaten anyone's existence as a female? My existence certainly isn't threatened if the person standing next to me is a transwoman.
Galaxy I'm not taking away anything just pointing out the inconsistencies and dangers of a theory that says trans women must use men's facilities and transmen can use women's
*grumppa" welcome to feminism, hope you've brought your hard hat!!!

Can I ask a question? And I am genuinely not trying to be facetious.

Does anyone think that men are prepared to grow breasts, take potentially damaging hormones, cut off their genitalia, have facial surgery to reduce the masculinisation of their facial features, have their adams apple shaved, all merely to enable them to enter women's spaces and threaten women?

No one has addressed the issue from that perspective on here, but on MN, it has been hinted at. That this is all a patriarchal plot for men (not that anyone would still be a man if they did all that) to take single sex spaces away from women OR to assault women.

If there are such a small number how on earth can they threaten anyone's existence as a female? My existence certainly isn't threatened if the person standing next to me is a transwoman.

This is getting ridiculous. It doesn't matter whether there are three transpeople in the world, or three billion. The law as it is being discussed would get rid of the female sex (as a designation, not the female population as individuals ) and replace it with gender.

No individual's existence is threatened by transpeople, and nobody said that it was.

GagaJo

Can I ask a question? And I am genuinely not trying to be facetious.

Does anyone think that men are prepared to grow breasts, take potentially damaging hormones, cut off their genitalia, have facial surgery to reduce the masculinisation of their facial features, have their adams apple shaved, all merely to enable them to enter women's spaces and threaten women?

No one has addressed the issue from that perspective on here, but on MN, it has been hinted at. That this is all a patriarchal plot for men (not that anyone would still be a man if they did all that) to take single sex spaces away from women OR to assault women.

No, I think that would be beyond unlikely. Of course nobody would do that unless they were very seriously disturbed, and well beyond the remit of this conversation.

The question itself troubles me though, as it has been said to the point of tedium that nobody is bothered by transpeople. Nobody is arguing from the perspective of transphobia.

It is not transitioned men who are the issue - it is the legislation that would allow a man to self-identify as female and enter women-only spaces. Once transitioned, as far as I am concerned she is a woman. A man who is not interested in transitioning, and particularly a man who 'has girl days and boy days', is not, and should not be in spaces where women feel vulnerable.

Gaga. The vast majority of transwomen do not cut off their genitals, or apply for a GRC.

What did Eddie Izzard need to do to access womens spaces gagajo? I think there are numerous reasons why men want to present as women, I dont think presentation changes their threat to women which is the same threat as any other man. Sone will not be a threat and sone will be, the same as any other man.
I would like gender non conforming people to be treated with the same care as anyone else trisher, so breast binding for example would not be considered good care for any other child. I want to be sure that transpeople are receiving evidence based treatment, the tavistock for example dont appear to be able to provide that at the moment. Gender critical feminists have been pointing this out for some time but it's just brushed way. I dont mean by people on this thread I mean by those who call us bigots.

Thank you Doodledog.

No petunia. But how many do not because of the difficulty that faces them in doing it? If they were able to access services, support, treatment etc. without having to fight for it.

GagaJo

Can I ask a question? And I am genuinely not trying to be facetious.

Does anyone think that men are prepared to grow breasts, take potentially damaging hormones, cut off their genitalia, have facial surgery to reduce the masculinisation of their facial features, have their adams apple shaved, all merely to enable them to enter women's spaces and threaten women?

No one has addressed the issue from that perspective on here, but on MN, it has been hinted at. That this is all a patriarchal plot for men (not that anyone would still be a man if they did all that) to take single sex spaces away from women OR to assault women.

(not that anyone would still be a man if they did all that)

If they would no longer be men if they have full surgical and hormone treatment, then you are by implication saying that anyone who declines surgery and hormone treatment remains a man. Therefore they shouldn't be in female only spaces.

Once again it seems necessary to state that if anyone can declare themselves a woman and access women only spaces, then any man (without any modifications) can use that process for nefarious reasons.

Gaga-i believe there are only a handful of surgeons willing to undertake such surgery is one reason. But many transwomen choose not to have surgery. I expect each one of them has their own reasons. But its safe to assume that most transwomen have not had their penis removed. I don't blame them really, the risks are high and the aftercare is not for the faint hearted. I believe the figures are also low for constructing a penis for a transman. That surgery is also tricky and frequently not satisfactory.

I think one of the best things we can do is look at actual experiences- so a young person who has stepped back from full transition thanks to advice they received at a clinic gids.nhs.uk/young-people/alfies-story

Rosie51, If they would no longer be men if they have full surgical and hormone treatment, then you are by implication saying that anyone who declines surgery and hormone treatment remains a man. Therefore they shouldn't be in female only spaces. These are your words. Not mine. I didn't say them OR imply them.

trisher
I have experience of young people in this position (as I am sure you probably have). The happiest by far was the individual (16 yrs) who had started the process, with supportive parents. The two who were the most distressed were those who were unable to even talk to their parents. For one child, a very nice individual, it had caused so much mental torment, that expulsion from school was about to occur, due to the severity of behavioural problems resulting from the distress.

I am not saying anything should be forced on young people, of course not. But when no support is given it is horrifically damaging, often leading to suicide.

GagaJo

*Rosie51*, If they would no longer be men if they have full surgical and hormone treatment, then you are by implication saying that anyone who declines surgery and hormone treatment remains a man. Therefore they shouldn't be in female only spaces. These are your words. Not mine. I didn't say them OR imply them.

trisher
I have experience of young people in this position (as I am sure you probably have). The happiest by far was the individual (16 yrs) who had started the process, with supportive parents. The two who were the most distressed were those who were unable to even talk to their parents. For one child, a very nice individual, it had caused so much mental torment, that expulsion from school was about to occur, due to the severity of behavioural problems resulting from the distress.

I am not saying anything should be forced on young people, of course not. But when no support is given it is horrifically damaging, often leading to suicide.

But you did. They are certainly not my words I referred to but were copied and pasted from your earlier comment of 13.25. I was rather surprised that you said it.

Does anyone think that men are prepared to grow breasts, take potentially damaging hormones, cut off their genitalia, have facial surgery to reduce the masculinisation of their facial features, have their adams apple shaved, all merely to enable them to enter women's spaces and threaten women?

No one has addressed the issue from that perspective on here, but on MN, it has been hinted at. That this is all a patriarchal plot for men (not that anyone would still be a man if they did all that) to take single sex spaces away from women OR to assault women.

Have I misunderstood and the bit in brackets which I have bolded is a quote from MN, not your words? If so I apologise, but it read to me that it was your aside comment.

Let me make it clear. I regard someone that feels and identifies as female, as female, regardless of what is in their pants. THAT is none of my business.

Doodledog I have re-read your 11.32 post and as far as I can see you offer no solution to the situation of men accessing women's spaces by claiming to be transmen in the process of transitioning. It would in my opinion be much easier to do this should you be a man intent on causing harm to women than it would to dress as a woman, and access those spaces. You wouldn' even need to change your clothes.

Gagajo the sheer lack of sympathy or understanding expressed in some of the posts on this thread upsets me sometimes. I will never understand why anyone would think it is OK to insist someone uses facilities where they are substantially at risk. I don't believe feminism separates oppressed people and establishes hierachies of suffering. It recognises all suffering, believes in equality and seeks to establish human rights for all minorities. Patriachy separates in order to dominate.

It does worry me, the way trans issues seem to be dividing us at the moment. I thought intersectional feminism was about inclusivity. Equality for all. United we stand etc.