can we discuss feminism please

individuals (my use of language AND typing are shocking at the moment, apologies)

It's not anti trans it supporting the protection of sex segregated spaces.

Many transwomen agree with sex segregation. And many think that womens spaces should only be open to certain transwomen, which is very interesting to watch, so many think Eddie Izzard for example should be excluded from those spaces. There is a complete diversity of opinion on this subject within the lgbt community, are they anti trans as well.

I fully accept that transpeople have been around forever. But the belief system that has sprung up in recent years is new. The belief that a person can change sex or that there are girl brains and boy brains, where sex has replaced gender. This is all new . And in many ways it doesn't really matter-until you stumble across one of those red lines. thats where the questions need to be asked

opppps sorry-gender has replaced sex!

That's fair enough but can I try to understand the thinkng of those who don't agree that people remain the sex they were born and that takes precedence.
As I understand it transwomen who look and present as women must use men's facilities because they remain men and allowing them into women's facilities opens these up to predatory men who may access them in order to assault women.
Transmen who look and present as men may use men's facilities but must also be allowed access to women's facilities because they remain women. But doesn't this open those facilities up to predatory men who won't even need to dress up-just say they are trans?
You may think my views on trans issues -that is self ID with a reasonable legislative procedure are weird and dangerous- but I think these ideas are discriminatory and dangerous.

Should be an and between agree and that, but I think the meaning is clear!

I don't believe in sex as a binary. There are too many exceptions for it to be a total black and white reality. I think the vast majority of us fit the binary, but not all.

How many times do we have to say it, though?

Transpeople who have transitioned should be accepted as their new gender, and use the facilities and spaces allocated to that gender. I don't think that anyone on here would object to that, although of course they should say if I am wrong in that assumption.

Non-transitioned people should use the facilities of the sex they were at birth, to prevent abuse of the system, and the chance of men claiming to be female in order to enter those facilities and be present in situations where natal women are vulnerable.

Self-ID should be the starting point for transition, if the self-identifying people want to be accepted into a different gender from their sex. If they do not wish to transition, they can wear what they like, adopt as many of the opposite sex/gender/whatever's norms as they wish, and ignore as many as they wish, just as people born into that gender do all the time, but they should not expect to be fully accepted as the opposite sex, because they have not transitioned and remain in their original body.

It is not transpeople who are a problem. It is not gender-fluid people who are a problem. It is not that people on this thread are transphobic or anti-trans.

It is people who have not committed to a change but want to access female spaces when they are still male who are the problem. For balance, I would extend that to women wanting access to male spaces, but as far as I can tell, this is likely to be less of an issue because they are less likely to be physically threatening to men.

In some cases this might result in awkward situations for the transwomen concerned, but with diplomacy and tact, they should be able to avoid sensitive areas where women are likely to feel vulnerable, and the awkwardness has to be weighed against the potential risk of having untransitioned men in single-sex female spaces.

ETA: If sex is binary for the vast majority of people, is this not a sensible basis on which be legislate? There is no need to be anything other than sensitive to the needs of those who do not fit this binary state, but the vast majority of the population should take priority.

GagaJo you truly believe there are more than two sexes? Every human being has been formed from two gametes joining together to form a zygote, a large nonmotile gamete (from the female) and a small motile gamete (from the male). These define the two sexes. DSDs do not indicate third, fourth or twentieth sexes. Gender, being an artificial concept can embody as many genders as you like.

It is people who have not committed to a change but want to access female spaces when they are still male who are the problem. For balance, I would extend that to women wanting access to male spaces, but as far as I can tell, this is likely to be less of an issue because they are less likely to be physically threatening to men. Where has this happened?

Our whole system is designed around binary opposites. How much more priority is needed?

petunia if you believe transpeople have been around forever what do you think they wanted if not to be the gender they felt they were? Surely all modern science has done is provide the means to effect the change. Before it existed they went about their lives unchallenged living as the gender they believed they were.

Doodledog full transitioning especially the operations involved requires an individual to be in very good health, sometimes it is difficult, if not impossible for someone to fully transition. So are you saying someone with health issues which prevent them having surgery must not be allowed to change their gender?

No. I am saying that they shouldn't access single sex spaces.

GagaJo

^It is people who have not committed to a change but want to access female spaces when they are still male who are the problem. For balance, I would extend that to women wanting access to male spaces, but as far as I can tell, this is likely to be less of an issue because they are less likely to be physically threatening to men.^ Where has this happened?

Our whole system is designed around binary opposites. How much more priority is needed?

This is just the first thing to show up on a quick Google search

So a disabled Trans women who is and has been living as a woman but is unable to have surgery must use male facilities. Isn't that discriminating against someone because of their disability?

I'm not sure I understand your point, but in most cases aren't disabled loos unisex?

I read the beginning Doodledog, but it is behind a paywall. So I did a quick search to find it elsewhere and got page upon page about violent assaults on trans individuals.

No one is suggesting trans individuals aren’t assaulted. If we are whatabouting - so are women, children, gay men, lesbians and especially in any predominantly white society, are bame individuals, immigrants, Roma people. Yes it’s all Bad but it doesn’t move this debate about the risks surrounding self ID and the loss of safe spaces, equality in employment / sport that women have fought for being lost

I think you can access a number of free views a month.

I am not denying that there are assaults on transpeople, which is reprehensible. The way to deal with that, however, is not to make vulnerable women even more vulnerable.

Snap, Iam - we cross-posted.

Trisher-while trans people have been around forever, there has not until recently been a concerted effort to change the laws. While it may be a good thing to change the laws to accommodate the wishes of the trans lobby, there needs to be a discussion on what to do around the red lines. Such as sport, such as women's refuges, such as health provision, such as employment, such as changing rooms/toilets, such as prisons, such as women's short lists etc etc. There must be a way to accommodate all these requests, but not to the detriment of women.

Oh when in doubt go back to loos! You insist trans people must be "fully transitioned" to use the facilities for their chosen gender (not just loos!!!). But this involves major surgery and some people are unable to have this because of health issues, are they then unable to use the facilities for the gender they believe themselves to be?

I see no-one is gong to address the issue of a man accessing women's spaces simply by claiming to be transman.

I haven't been into a communal changing room in the US, UK, China, Spain or Switzerland in at least the last 10 years. I apprecitate they still exist but they must surely be just about gone?

On one hand, trans individuals are being shut out of accessing help, because the places that do offer it face court challenges and potential shut down. Then on the other hand, the requirement that only fully 'transitioned' (by which I assume means hormones & surgery) individuals gain access to single sex spaces.