can we discuss feminism please

Not sure where I stand on this. In the early 70's I had been to college and aspired to be an accountant( never made it). I applied for a trainee accountant post with a local council but was told I would not be considered because I was female. That situation has been remedied thankfully but I sometimes feel that the pendulum has swung too far. An interesting debating topic.

claresc0tt Men are/were hunter gatherers, and women gave birth and nurtured the offspring. There is archaeological evidence being uncovered which indicates that women were actually warriors along side men.

Interesting juxtaposition of 'hunters' and 'warriors, there, trisher. We don't actually need archaeological evidence of women as warriors as there is plenty of documentary evidence of more recent 'women warriors'; the famous Amazons spring to mind, but there have been examples in other cultures (I can look them up if you want).

However, I'm uncomfortable with the 'female warrior'. If we see this as a positive female attribute we then applying a 'male' standard of values which basically says 'having babies and looking after them is pathetically girly and weak, while being a warrior is the acme of human achievement which must be admired and lauded'?

Sorry, 2nd para. 2nd sentence, should read '..are we then..'

Weren't the Amazons a Greek myth?

I've always considered myself a feminist, long before it was much discussed. To me it simply means that we are treated equally in every way. I worked in a sub post-office in the 1970's and it was discovered one day that I was paid less than the man who worked there and we did exactly the same job.
I was horrified, and did receive full back pay which was quite a large sum. I believe this still goes on these days which is unforgivable.
Sometimes I think modern feminism goes too far and becomes agresssive. I don't like that.

David0205

Of course “Women” are a diverse group, at one extreme timid and even a look will offend, at the other extreme, give as good as they get, work happily with men and often supervise them.
So one definition of feminism is impossible.

I'm not timid David0205. By your metric I "give as good as I get"; I managed transnational teams of engineers across 3 continents, most of them men. Imagine, supervising men, well there you go....

I get offended by unwanted male attention if it means that such men think they are entitled to see me as less than they are. Not because I'm "timid". The men I worked with didn't act this way, not because they were afraid of upsetting me, but because it would never have occurred to them to do so.

I think we must never forget as we in the west strive to reach parity with our male counterparts, how far removed some women lives are from such a concept. We still live in a world where many women are treated as chattels and are so under the thumb of the patriarchy their own lives don't belong to them. Feminism may never emerge in their worlds, some cultures, Afghanistan springs to mind, have actually gone backwards as far as the rights of women are concerned.

I'm reluctant to get into discussing feminism as it is one form of unfair discrimination - and that is to be fought wherever we see it. We all need to work towards a fair society.

Interesting viewpoint, sandelf - are you willing to say why you think it is unfair discrimination?

Quite understand if you don't want to.

"I sometimes feel that the pendulum has swung too far."

Really? In what way has feminism gone too far? Much of the conversation here has been from a rather privileged angle. We, here in the UK, pretty much have equality but while such brutalities as FGM, forced marriage, lack of contraceptive and abortion choices and so on exist in other societies, feminism will always be needed. We can't pretend all is well just because we have equal pay and some men do a bit of nappy-changing.

Lucretzia

Weren't the Amazons a Greek myth?

Most Greek myth, when relating to mortals, rather that gods, is rooted in reality. And, despite my sniff about it, are confirmed by archaeology. Amazons existed

I have had a friend, male, helping me renovate a wreck of a bungalow for a year now. He's had me holding plasterboard up to the ceiling, carrying bricks, knocking up the tiled floor in the kitchen, etc. Yet still he says "you probably can't do that you are only a woman!" I get so angry as I find it so insulting. I have to listen to him moaning about his sore back, knees, etc as he tries to stand up. He talks down to his mother, who he lives with , that's it's cringing at times. He's never married and now I'm beginning to know why....

If anyone is nterested in the Amazons I recommend Natalie Haynes Stands Up For The Classics www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000jfpc
This episode is about Penthesilea the Amazon.
MaizieD I mentioned archaelogical evidence because it is recent and indesputable evidence. Skeletal evidence that a woman was an archer and a Viking warrior site long regarded as male shown to be a woman. I can post links if you like.

One of the big issues feminists should be looking at is our representation in the House of Commons. As we approach 100 years of women having the vote on an equal basis to men there are still far fewer women MPs. the 50:50 campaign aimed to get more women involved of any political views- Ask her to stand 5050parliament.co.uk/askhertostand-campaign/
Has anyone someone they would ask or any ideas why there are so few women MPs?

Reminds me of my father, Alioop , when I was divorced and living on my own he thought any work that I had done in my flat - decorating, basic plumbing, mending fuses etc - must have been done by a man.

But that was in the 1970s - so sad that there are still people that think like that!

Some people believe the Amazons existed.

Others don't

Last time anyone whistled at me I was 53 . I was thrilled.

Treat others how you want to be treated. I see and hear so called feminists running men down. That is so not on. Me...I live my life. Maybe more should just be their own person and stop labelling themselves or others.

Lucretzia most accept the archaelogical evidence about nomadic tribes now emerging www.nationalgeographic.com/history/magazine/2020/05-06/fierce-amazons-more-than-myth-real/

'why there are so few women MPs?'
Trisher unfortunately I don't know anyone to ask who would like to stand as a member of parliament. This is probably because the influences on me during my lifetime have been from a society which values only white, male opinions. Not mine and not the women I know. So I don't feel that my opinions count out there at all. I do home and family things well. Thats my training. My mother was good at it. Along with most other women, I was not schooled to give, or fight for, my opinion.
My experience is not unique. That is why there are so few women candidates for positions of power.
I am hoping that todays young women are supported by a much more equal schooling system so they can come out of it feeling noticed and ready to fight for their ideas.
Our, so called, priviledged society has a long way to go yet.

I've always thought of myself as being a feminist in that I wanted equality, not superiority. I have rarely been phased by things that are seen as "men's" work but that is probably because I had a mother who was as happy installing a full central heating system as baking a cake.
I recognise that there are differences between female and male strength in a lot of cases but as long as that firefighter has the strength to lift me from a burning building, I don't care whether they are xx or xy.
I have always been incensed by the fact that in Primary Education a huge proportion of teachers are females and yet men seem to make it to the top of the profession more quickly and in greater percentages. I don't know whether the actual official figures bear that out but it certainly seemed that way to me.
I realise that my idea of feminism is very naive, particularly after reading things on Mumsnet and Gransnet but I am happy reading about the viewpoints on both forums and giving them consideration but I don't think I'll ever be an ardent feminist. If there was separate section, I'd probably dip into it every now and then but I'm not sure it would be a mainstay for me.

“There is archaeological evidence being uncovered which indicates that women were actually warriors along side men.”

Come on Trisher you don’t really believe than when it comes to fighting women are equal to men do you. We all know about Boudicca and Joan of Arc, women were leaders, but fight on equal terms, no.

First of all, I believe equality begins at home, with children learning from their parents. I accept that, even in these supposedly enlightened times, there are many homes where this doesn't happen, or not in an enlightened way.

Then, it's education, education, education, resolutely, but not indoctrination. All schools should be co-ed, including faith schools, public and private schools, and subject to more regular inspection.

It's ingrained ignorance that's the enemy and there's a lot of it about. It's the result of centuries, millennia even, of acceptance, convenience, financial advantage and reinforcement and will take decades to change. We have to keep challenging it.

sarahcyn

Maybe one reason GN is reluctant to encourage debate on feminism is that it has now become a toxic and fraught issue, with little to do with holding doors open or equal pay.
Many feminists object to men being allowed to self-identify as women; many feminists object to the avoidance of using the word woman etc.
For example in my own field we are advised to refer to “pregnant people” and refer to breastfeeding as chestfeeding to avoid excluding trans people. Not everyone feels comfortable with this.
And there are other feminists who say that to express reluctance to change one’s language in such a way is in itself an act of violence towards trans people, who are or have been a persecuted minority.
So what I’m saying is basically...maybe best not to go there.

I think it is best to go there! This is exactly the reaction that transactivists want us to have, to be intimidated by them. I refuse to be called a womxn or cis and we do have breasts and a cervix There have been cases where women are being refused support to breastfeed because they won't call it chest feeding. This is in addition to demanding women lose their sex (not gender) based rights such as women only safe places.
We only have to look at the current leadership of the pandemic to see how women's voices are not being heard.

David0205

“There is archaeological evidence being uncovered which indicates that women were actually warriors along side men.”

Come on Trisher you don’t really believe than when it comes to fighting women are equal to men do you. We all know about Boudicca and Joan of Arc, women were leaders, but fight on equal terms, no.

I do rather hope this is a parody post, David0205.

But... The presence of individual women, dressed as men, fighting alongside men in many different cultures is very well documented.

Why do you think that women couldn't fight 'on equal terms'?

Not that I really want to concentrate on 'woman as warrior'. What I'm questioning is the use of male generated 'standards' to judge the 'worth' of women. Is being a warrior really more 'worthy' than being a mother?

Does a propensity to be able to fight make a woman a 'real' person as opposed to a mere child (and meal) producer?

I think you must be out to raise my blood pressure David0205

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flora_Sandes