can we discuss feminism please

Galaxy

Quite a few of us have asked GN for a feminism board, and there are a number of posters who are doing a really good job of starting threads on this topic as GN wanted to judge the level of interest. Feminism is the same as any other topic, you would not expect all members of the labour party to agree on every topic for example so I am not sure why feminists are expected to agree on everything. For example I think wolfwhistles are a horrible form of control as if you dont react the way they want you to you will always receive insults. I hate that girls from 13 upwards have to endure that.

Yes Gransnet, can we please have a Feminism Forum.

GNHQ probably have their heads in their hands as we speak at the thought of it. We will play nicely.I think you will need to put it in site stuff for them to take notice. They did ask the last time it was mentioned for us to keep starting threads on womens rights so they could judge interest. I never start threads so I have been rubbish at helping with that.

Research provides evidence and our experiences as women and once as girls demonstrate that where male bodies share a space with us there are issues for us, especially in places where we are vulnerable. In my opinion, this is caused by toxic masculinity which takes many forms. It threatens all, especially women, children, in particular girls.
So, men who identify as women is not the issue. Toxic masculinity is the issue and this is what needs to be addressed. Some of us are trying to do that and at sometime in the future I hope we live in a world where it is absent.
Whilst we work at this we must be mindful of the risks and threats that it presents and remove or reduce them as far as is possible. History shows that disguise as a trustworthy individual is a way that has been used to gain access to individuals, groups, places and pretending to be female is one such disguise.
Prevention is necessary and plays a major part in providing protection. E.g. ‘Ladies’ toilets and changing rooms remain as facilities for adult females and children. Men who identify as women also need to have their own facilities to protect them from toxic masculinity.
P.s. facilities which are unisex is zero protection

But if 'toxic masculinity" is the issue I would argue that you are not adressing that by focussing on ladies loos etc. The way to tackle it is to look at the issues that really affect women's lives why they exist and campaign to change them. As an example women pay out fortunes in their lifetime for items connected with having periods, yet if they wish anyone who is sexually active can choose to ask for free condoms. Why?
MBHP1 there are a huge number of posts on other threads about this issue let's not get into it again. Just read those.
But there are transmen and non-binary people where do you suggest they go?

it can't be acceptable to advise MBHP1 that because previous threads discussed trans, it should not be part of this current discussion

Iam64

it can't be acceptable to advise MBHP1 that because previous threads discussed trans, it should not be part of this current discussion

Agreed, and also, telling someone to 'just read' other threads is not giving her the chance to join in with her own opinion.

I agree that other feminist issues are being ignored whilst this one hogs the agenda, and as I said in a previous post I think that this is a shame; but equally, it is clearly a problem for a lot of women as it keeps rearing its head.

I am always uncomfortable when people say we shouldn't discuss one issue because other issues exist, it's happening with covid at the moment, i.e the claim its ridiculous to talk about Brexit because of the tragedy of covid.

Ladies loos and other protected spaces are an issues because of the risks involved and prevention is part of addressing that.
In my previous reply...it is not an ‘either or’, it is an ‘as well’ to addressing all the issues that impact on women and children’s lives.
In Scotland we campaigned for a life time for free sanitary protection. I started my periods aged 11 and can recall my mother in our town hall including in her speech about discrimination, the need for free sanitary protection, I was so sensitive about it all. I am now 66. I also recall being a young mother at not have money for sanitary towels so not being able to go out. We now have them free, in Scotland. My mother was told is was not a pressing issue, a pipe dream. Her reply included that she believed it was an issue because it restricted freedom of movement and that it was an achievable dream if the men in power who held the purse strings (at that time) allowed it to happen and she was also simultaneously working on the other pressing issues. She spent her life campaigning for, in her words, ‘women’s emancipation’.
I am interested in the thoughts and opinions of women of my generation which is why I am raising this as a discussion point here on Gransnet. Do you mean there are other Gransnet Forums that have discussed toxic masculinity, the resulting risks and how to address it?

There is a thread which discusses trans issues in detail MBHP1 I'm sorry if others feel I am closing the issue down. I have come to accept that many on GN are unable to accept my views and will vigorously and unreasonably insist that this will in some way be easily solvable but it won't.
Women's loos and changing rooms are currently used by transwomen because the law requires that they do that for 2 years. Just as transmen must use mens facilities.
The only solution I have seen to this which some seem to expect is that sex becomes a protected characteristic under the Equalities act. This it has been said will protect women's spaces. But as I pointed out one of the great acheivements of the women's movement was gaining access to men only spaces which existed until very recently. If sex becomes a protected characteristic then men will be able to claim men-only spaces as well as women. As men currently are in the majority in many professions, in government and in the judiciary how long will it be before decisons are once again taken in men's clubs?
As for toxic masculinity I think it is best addressed by changing the parameters of what is regarded as masculine and feminine of allowing men the right to express their feelings and encouraging women to organise and demonstrate that there are alternatives to a patriarchal society where some are minorities and strength is denoted by dominating others.

Sorry I dont know how to respond to that . Sex is a protected characteristic under the act.

But apparently gender is equated with sex by some -sorry I think I misphrased that badly. It isn't right I fully admit. But if someone wants to post exactly what they want rather than picking holes it is easily understandable. If you create women's spaces you legally must allow men spaces as well and that's a retrograde step.

No. You need to read the act. Those spaces are already protected where you can prove need with regard to privacy dignity or other issues. So you can have a group to talk about mens health issues for example without it going against the equality act but not a Male drinking club for example. It's sometimes really important to have male only spaces as well.

Firstly, thank you to those who wished me well with my dental treatment.
For the record, I have spent over 40 years of my working life addressing, campaigning and being part of providing services in the male violence against women and children field. One part of this is that I am a founder member of my home town Rape Crisis service started in the 1980’s.
I have seen first hand what toxic masculinity can do to the body, the mind, the emotions, the spirit of a woman and her child/ren. It is a challenging and privileged undertaking to assist with the journey from victim to survivor. In part, this is because the context in which a personal experience takes place needs to be understood. The context is the same around the world in varying degrees, the absence of full equality and equity for women with men and part of that is toxic masculinity.
Within this context, we are potentially going to move from female and children’s bodies in Ladies loos to include male adult bodies in that same space. The context informs us and underpins my views.
As it does with regards to the glass ceiling, women being the ones who are bearing the brunt of unemployment due to the pandemic, plus all the other discriminatory matters that women face as a sex, simply because they are women.
I want us all to come together to address toxic masculinity in all its far reaching forms whilst doing all we can to keep women and children safe from risk and harm which includes protecting the ground we have gained.

I think when people have seen the impact of male violence in their professional or personal life, it has a profound impact.
I think someone mentioned it earlier or it may have been another thread, but I agree that early years education is a real key to this. Trying to unpick the expectations on boys and girls. And sure start were also doing good work in this area, all gone now of course.

Of course it's an issue but if there are spaces which are protected as Galaxy insists what is the issue you are all complaining about? You have the legal protection apparently so why do you need more? If it is loos and changing rooms we are discussing I would argue it's completely unenforcable.
As for toxic masculinity when I stated on another thread that I had seen women actually encoraging and developing this in boys I was accused of hating women. Personally I think that's just an example of how sheltered some women's lives have been. If you live in a rough estate and your son is going to grow up in that estate you may feel teaching him to fight is his best protection. It isn't the women's fault, but nor is it the boy's.

We are complaining because the exemptions are being ignored, people are terrified to use the exemptions and companies are bullied to an inch of their lives if they try to enforce them.
As to boys, that's why early education is the key, nobody is blaming boys, we are trying to unpick some of the issues around male violence, consent etc.

There is a thread about sex at the moment, and some people are talking about sex education, and how it mainly has a focus on contraception etc, when it needs to have more of a focus on consent, boundaries, etc. We need to get much better at talking about this.

trisher, surely, feminism is significant in supporting and challenge women who encourage toxic masculinity. Your suggestion that women who dont 'live on rough council estates have led sheltered lives seems another attempt at dismissing those who don't agree with you.
many contributors to this discussion have worked 40 years with children and families, in refuges, with violent men with sex offenders men and women

Iam64 of course it should but when I raised the issue on another thread I was accused of being very anti-women. I think the first way of tackling something is to accept it exists and then how it can be alleviated. The only reason I could think of for condemning me for raising the issue was that those people had no experience of the problem.

I don't think that anyone said that the problem didn't exist. The reason that people disagreed with you (I don't think anyone condemned you) was that you laid the blame for male violence at the hands of women, which is, at best, simplistic and at worst very anti-feminist.

In any case, people do not always have to have had experience of a problem to form an opinion or to empathise.

It's also impossible to know who has experience.

I said that women sometimes encouraged and shouted at men when they were being violent. I was then accused of hating women and of being mysogynistic and of blaming women for male violence. It isn't blaming anyone to point out a problem. I find it interesting that those of you who hate to be called transphobic find it so easy to use such condemnatory language against another woman.
I really don't understand why you would deny the problem exists, or blame me for raising it, if you have experienced it.
Male violence will not be eradicated until we fully understand and appreciate the complexities of violence in families. Of course there are women victims of violence but the problem isn't limited to them.
Early years intervention might help, but equally such work may actually be minimised when the child grows older if the culture he grows up in expects, no demands, that boys solve their problems by fighting.

male violence will not be eradicated until we fully understanding appreciate the complexities of violence in families. Of course there are women victims of violence but. the problem isn't limited to them
Two women a week are murdered by men. Feminist analysis of violence in families is something that's been studied as part of training for anyone working with families, individuals male and female for certainly the many years. Clinical psychologists working in prisons or projects providing alternatives to custody are not ignorant or ill informed. There is definitely a need for more work to challenge and support men who want to change their behaviour. Yes, early years i a good starting point.
Family Centres/SureStart centres were doing good work in developing courses and individual support packages for families were violence was part of life. Of course the austerity programme and the total lack of understanding or concern shown by successive Conservative governments has slashed those.

I don't think that anyone did deny that the problem exists, but bringing it up as an explanation for male violence in the context of a discussion about why many vulnerable women are uneasy about sharing intimate spaces with men wasn't particularly helpful.

People had said that one of the reasons for women feeling uneasy about untransitioned transmen being allowed into DV refuges was because of male violence, and were told in response that some women were responsible for male violence. This was never going to go down well, particularly coming from someone who had been lecturing the rest of us about feminism throughout the thread whilst simultaneously putting the needs of transmen above those of women.

Nobody said that your example was untrue - in fact there was a video of women in the NE (I think) who were doing just that about ten years ago, and it was reported on the news. Any objections on the thread were to the way that the behaviour of the women in this incident was presented as being responsible for male violence instead of any of the numerous other examples of the way the socialisation of men can breed a violent outcome, or, for that matter, the fact that there would have been no reason for the women to 'train' their sons to fight if the men around them were not already violent.

A parallel example might be to say that because some mothers encourage their daughters to dress modestly so that they don't get raped, we should criticise those mothers instead of cracking down harder on rapists who use women's clothing as an excuse.

In your example and mine, mothers are socialising their children into the norms of the society to which they belong, but in so doing are limiting their lives. In both cases, I feel that the best way to deal with the situation would be to deal with the behaviour that has necessitated that sort of socialisation rather than demonise the mothers for finding ways to mitigate it.

ETA: This does not mean that I condone teaching small children (or medium or large ones!) to fight. Clearly, that is something that needs to be addressed as well as the root of the problem.