can we discuss feminism please

I think it's a little unfair to expect feminism to be 'pure' in its arguments, no other organisation or cause is able to do that. The labour party doesnt always agree on its core message, those campaigning on lgbt rights, or disability rights for example dont agree on many issues. So I think modern feminism would have many different views on the issues faced by women.

Sorry terrible typos

Trisher, I agree it is splitting feminists and I believe all the more reason it needs to be discussed.
I am a Scot and currently there is a move to change the GRC by the Scottish gov so it is very relevant to me. Also, they made a ‘back door’ decision about the definition of ‘woman’ regarding the public bodies boards in that anyone who identifies as a woman can take up the 50-50 ratio put in place to encourage women into public life and address discrimination and this decision is currently being challenged in the Scot courts. The outcome will directly impact on all Scot gov decisions regarding the definition of ‘woman’ and so the other issues you note as more important and relevant will be affected by the outcome.
On a personal note, I found myself, before last March 2020 at a literary festival in a public building with three levels, cardboard signs attached to all ‘Ladies’ toilets in the building stating that these toilets were suitable to what ever gender you identified. This meant I had to leave the festival and find toilet facilities else where then return because I do not feel safe taking down my underwear when there is a possibility of a male body being in the vicinity when we would be behind to closed doors even though my individual toilet door, presumably, would lock securely. One other women I spoke to just removed the cardboard sign on one level in order to use the toilet.
I do not see this as is a trans issue. This is my issue as a woman who has the right to dignity, privacy and safety from male bodies in traditional only female spaces. It is also my issue as a grandparent who believes children are vulnerable by dint of age, experience and physical stature. We need to reduce the risk as far as is possible to them, also.
I also agree that the other issues you mention are as important and relevant and I welcome any discussion about those too. I don’t see it as an ‘either, or’, I see it as an, ‘as well’.

I've had this discussion too many times on GN. Not going to do it again, but I would say most public toilets these days have notices warning you that they are serviced by male and female operatives. Do you not use those ones? And how do you know what gender the slightly butch looking woman going into the loo beside you is?

Dear God its sex. We couldnt care less what gender people are.
I am sorry you had that experience MBH. Anecdotally most people in particular workplaces organise the toilets by sex even when they are unisex.

Hello MBHP1 and thanks for your post.

Where are these feminist daughters who demand child care or estrange their mothers?? Why collate these two very different issues

Galaxy you can call what you wish- but gender really isn't the same.
However the question remains if toilets are cleaned by male and females would you use them, and what about the butch-looking woman would you ban her?

She's a woman trisher, why on earth would I ban her, I couldnt care less how people present. It has nothing to do with their sex.

Trish, traditionally a ‘Ladies’ toilet facility for women and children, if used by a male body person, regardless of what they look like, would be considered a breach of the peace because that is what it would be doing, weather I noticed that person or not. If we change to unisex there is not that deterrent in place. If I was unsure about my safety I would leave. As for male attendants, I wait, find an alternative or go else where. I would prefer if attendants were all female. I hope that disclosure checks are carried out by employers. Also, this is not the same as all and any male bodied person.
I appreciate this is not just about me, this is about all women and children e.g. What are BME women going to do if traditional women and children spaces are changed to unisex bearing in mind that this means all females and males of all age groups can use those facilities simultaneously. There will not be a ‘Ladies’ or a ‘Gents’ as an alternative. Invariably where current practice takes us, (which is unlawful) is that the ‘Ladies’ is changed to a Unisex toilet. This is also discriminatory in that women and children don’t have a choice but men do.

Was not my comment.

Oops, my last reply was for Iam64.

I have a dental appointment so must dash.
Thank you for the discussion.
I am knew to Gransnet so I may not using the replying/responding mechanism correctly. Will get the hang of it eventually, tech not my strength. ?

I hope your dental appointment goes well, MBHP1.

I believe that 'the trans issue' is pushing many other feminist issues aside, which on one hand is a shame, as the day to day lives of women are still massively affected by childcare issues, work/home balance, the gender pay gap and so many other things.

On the other hand, I also believe that if feminists lose the argument over self-ID we will be pushed back generations. If men can define themselves as women at will, there will be no protection against discrimination, and so many of the things that previous generations of feminists (including many of us on this board) fought for for so long would be lost, which I think would be tragic. Employers would be able to employ men over women with no comeback if the men defined as female at interview, women would have nowhere to be safe when they feel vulnerable, and so on. It is vitally important that these (and other) issues are discussed without threats to those who disagree that self-ID is a human right, but we seem to be a long way from that being the case.

Regarding the 'branches' of feminism, I think that these are useful in an academic context, in the same way as sociological or historical terms are useful. They help to summarise wide-ranging issues, and act as shorthand in discussions, so that people don't have to keep redefining terms. I don't think that they are particularly useful otherwise, though, as they are too reductive. People don't fit easily into boxes and think as one, and in a hypothetical Venn diagram of feminism, more would fit into the overlapping sectors than in the original circles.

Butthe law as it is requires that in order to change their gender someone mst live as their chosen gender for 2 years so the very butch looking women may be a women or may be a transgender woman and unless you are going to strip off her clothes yu simply won't know As for the breach of the peace MBHP1 well it's happening every day and has been for the last 50 years.

Yes its terribly misogynistic guidance, devised without a thought for women.

Galaxy but some people you would want to call women want to be known as men, isn't it mysoginistic to deny them that right? Why is it mysogynistic to require both genders to use the facilities they aspire to?

Anyway we will never agree on this. It's a blind alley which I refuse to be caught down. Things will work them selves out. But in the meantime there are still fewer women MPs, more women are losing their jobs because they get pregnant, childcare is becoming either too expensive or even impossible to find, more women will be suffering from poverty because of covid. Lets drop the trans issue and really get some feminist action going on the real issues for most women.

MBHP1 my second comment asking where these feminist exploiting estranging daughters came from was directed at oopsadaisy, sorry I should have been clear.
trisher, I know you said you don’t want to continue to be drawn into discussions on trans. Can I just say I struggle with some of your descriptions of women. “butch” could describe a couple of my lesbian friends, as well as several straight women I’m close to. They arent and I doubt would ever be thought of as trans. The trans people I know are easily identified as trans.

We seem to have reached a point where you, like the majority here in trans discussions, are prioritising the needs of “the real issues for most women”

Iam64 I used "butch" because it's an easily recognisable term. You may have a different term you prefer but the fact remains that all women do not look as some women think they should and I wonder what would happen to those women if they thought they might be challenged by someone every time they went to the loo. Would they have to change their look?
Yes I am prioritising the real issues because it seems far more important to me that a woman can lose her job simply because she is pregnant-a right we thought we had acheived but patently haven't. That there are women suffering real financial hardship because they have had their pension messed about with so much, That there are girls unable to afford proper sanitary protection because of poverty. And hundreds of more causes that really affect lives today.
And I happen to think that those issues are impacting on more women than the occasional trans person accessing toilets and changing rooms which they have been doing for years without much bother until a few feminists (mostly fairly privileged ones) decided it was an issue.
They (and you) are entirely entitled to pursue whatever beliefs you have about trans people but it shouldn't be permitted to 'take over' feminism because there is still so much more to change.

I think it was 'a few transpeople' (or possibly more sinister forces who are attempting to reverse the cause of feminism and are using this issue to do it) who decided that their cause was such an issue that feminists are no-platformed and 'cancelled' if they disagree with them. Blaming 'a few feminists' is disingenuous in the extreme.

I can't remember any other feminist issue being so contentious in my lifetime - it probably hasn't happened since the suffragettes.

Ladies loo lovers: What do you all do on the continent where you use the same one whoever you are?

As was previously said I agree, it's none of my business what's between their legs in all situations.

I agree with you Ro60. I don't need to check your genitalia to be able to use the loo.

Every discussion about feminism seems to be derailed or dominated by the trans issue. As Doodledog says, that’s where feminists are deplatformed, or lectured to as though they know nothing about women’s rights and life experiences

That's lovely for you. Many women particularly those who have been raped and assaulted by men feel differently. But let's not worry about them after all they are the priveledged ones. The women in prison who are currently taking their case to court following their assault by men in womens prisons, how.privileged they are.

I also think that the idea that you can only think about one idea is odd. All the women I know who are involved in the transgender debate have been key figures is many feminist campaigns, particularly thse around violence against women.