The National Trust - is it losing ours?

FannyCornforth

Dilly as soon as I pressed post, I knew that I was going to get a ticking off.
I do think that I would know how I would feel, as I don't think that a change in who I want to snog or the colour of my skin would give me an entire personality transplant

Years of abuse, being ignored in shops unless they decide to follow you because obviously you are a thief, having your children upset at remarks they've had might give you a personality transplant.

“Sexuality is just another aspect of someone, not necessarily the defining one.”

I disagree I think sexuality and race fundamentally change your lived experience. I have gay and black friends but do not pretend to know what their life is like. There are plenty of studies that testify to this. Proximity to minority groups is not the same as your lived experience.

Obviously someone who is black or gay is not solely their race or sexuality orientation, but being a member of a group where you are likely to experience racism or homophobia can not help but shape your personality and outlook.

I know I don’t get it right all the time, but I have moved into a public facing role during the pandemic where I must make sure I’m welcoming and understanding of all communities. It’s been an eye opener.

Peasblossom

Glitter, face paint, colourful costumes etc are stereotypes of the Gay community. For the NT(or anybody) to think that this is what Pride is about just shows the depth of their ignorance and lack of understanding of the issues.

Talk about tokenism?

✔️✔️✔️✔️ From me!

IMO the NT shouldnt be involved in promoting any group or cause.
For the obvious reason that they are not experts nor should they be.

An interesting accurate approach should be to include the financial, political and social influence on society that the house and its owner had.
Clear concise and informative.

Most of the information added recently to 'update' the history of the houses has been found to be inaccurate.
Written often by people who dont always have a interest or educational background in history.

A decision to equate colonialism with slavery, for example, led to Rudyard Kiplings house to be treated in the same way as others who had profited by the proceeds of slavery.

There is a Trust set up a year or two ago, which s trying to bring attention to what is happening inside the organisation and promote a clearer understanding of the aims and commitments of the NT.

It seems to have had some effect as Tim Parker has resigned.

I remember my (black) friend saying that I didn't understand how much harder her black sons had to work and to try compared to my white sons, just because of the colour of their skin. Then a few weeks later I sat outside the driving theory test centre waiting for one of mine and ALL, I mean ALL the boys who were black that turned up for their test were wearing shirt and ties and smart trousers. All the white boys turned up in casual wear. It was so striking actually.

Fanny, the chemist has its own Wikipedia page It is called Emile Doo's chemist shop

Sexuality is just another aspect of someone, not necessarily the defining one.

I disagree I think sexuality and race fundamentally change your lived experience. I have gay and black friends but do not pretend to know what their life is like. There are plenty of studies that testify to this. Proximity to minority groups is not the same as your lived experience.

You have no idea about my lived experience, though, nor that of anyone else on here.

I've asked for my posts on this thread to be removed.
Simply because I don't want or need to justify my opinions further, and I'm not here for an argument.
If I wanted one of those, I'd go outside and discuss with DH what he is doing to the lawn.

I don't think Boris is up to manning the site today Fanny, it is popular opinion he'd had a fair few yesterday before the meeting and accidentally fell into a toddlers craft table of glitter and shit and now looks ready for pride week with a PVA horn

FannyCornforth

I've asked for my posts on this thread to be removed.
Simply because I don't want or need to justify my opinions further, and I'm not here for an argument.
If I wanted one of those, I'd go outside and discuss with DH what he is doing to the lawn.

That's a shame, Fanny. Your opinions are as valid as anyone else's, and if only one school of thought remains on any thread it becomes boring very quickly.

Thank you Doodledog but why does everything have to become a flipping argument? It's really getting on my t****.

This time too many asterisks...

Doodledog

FannyCornforth

I've asked for my posts on this thread to be removed.
Simply because I don't want or need to justify my opinions further, and I'm not here for an argument.
If I wanted one of those, I'd go outside and discuss with DH what he is doing to the lawn.

That's a shame, Fanny. Your opinions are as valid as anyone else's, and if only one school of thought remains on any thread it becomes boring very quickly.

Agree.

Your post are as valid as everyone else’s

FannyCornforth

This time too many asterisks...

?? thats the nature of GN.

Whitewavemark2

FannyCornforth

This time too many asterisks...

?? thats the nature of GN.

that really made me laugh loud in a very quiet house

Doodledog

^Sexuality is just another aspect of someone, not necessarily the defining one.^

I disagree I think sexuality and race fundamentally change your lived experience. I have gay and black friends but do not pretend to know what their life is like. There are plenty of studies that testify to this. Proximity to minority groups is not the same as your lived experience.

You have no idea about my lived experience, though, nor that of anyone else on here.

We may not know but surely we have enough human connection to understand enough.
How do any laws get passed by one group on behalf of another?

Enough of the enough's!!

I realise the conversation has moved on while I've been out but I want to answer theworriedwell who asked me if I thought if racism was an issue we should be dealing with. Short answer; Yes.

Long answer: The impact of slavery on Scottish society and its historical institutions and families is a hot topic in Scotland at the moment. Whether the statue of Dundas in St Andrews Square should have a plaque on it, cause of big debates here at the moment. I tend to the view of Prof Devine.

So if we are talking about a property built about 150 years after the abolition of slavery, owned by a family who rose to prominence late in the 19th century, and who have been proved not to have any links to slavery, then shoehorning slavery into the story of their house is inappropriate.

Asking guides who have done years of training in a particular aspect of Scottish history or the history of art, to dress up to get the message across to the "younger generation", is patronising to both sides.

Asking guides to wear rainbow lanyards, no problem. Asking them to dress up as a caricature of a gay person; crossing the line.

I find Dillythegardener's suggestion that I only want to look at pretty things insulting. Almost as much as somebody telling me I’m wrong about something I’m right about. Hey ho.

I do not think many people would argue that being gay etc is other than perfectly normal, nor that in houses where those that built them got the wealth from slavery then this is part of the history should not be hidden.

What I have got fed up is the excessive branding of NT properties, the depressing sameness of all their shops, all their entrance areas and their constant desire to sell you their story of the house, the one they choose to the exclusion of any other and most of all the lack of decent guidebooks, presumably in case you want to know something about the house that they have decided is irrelevant.

I have tried in houses to ask about the things that interest me, but are not a part of the NT story, only to find that room guides only know what they are told. DH was asking about the paintings in one property we visited recently and as it was a small property with few visitors at the time, somebody passed him an old catalogue from under the counter asking him to be discrete because they weren't meant to give it to people.

Some internal reports leaked to the press, said that the NT should try to move away from focussing on the 'mansion experience' and reduce the importance of grand houses in its offer to the public. It wished to downplay its importance as a cultural institution www.arthistorynews.com/articles/5685_Inside_the_National_Trusts_Beeching_Plan

Follow the link it makes a frightening read.

I visit NT properties for their architecture, beautiful gardens and to learn something from history.
I don’t give a tinkers toss wether their staff support LGBT, BLM or any other organisation.
It has to stop.

“ As for Pride month. I actually think it's insulting and patronising to gay people to wear face paint and glitter - for them”

Agree with this totally. It also looks like some kind of cultural appropriation!
Why can’t they just have some kind of notices saying NT supports Gay pride week.

FannyCornforth

This time too many asterisks...

You’re having a bit of a day of it with your asterisks are t you F*******C*

An acknowledgement of the shameful things we did - and do - in the name of colonialism and a celebration of the POC and LGBTQ+ people who make up this country’s history is the only way to gain my trust.

AmberSpyglass

An acknowledgement of the shameful things we did - and do - in the name of colonialism and a celebration of the POC and LGBTQ+ people who make up this country’s history is the only way to gain my trust.

I was hoping you would join this discussion Amber, what’s your view of the dressing up ?

On dressing up. The NT do it so badly. Dressing staff in
inauthentic costumes with modern haircuts, make-up and with those wearing these clothes behaving and conducting themselves as the 21st people they are, rather than inhabiting the period.

As for expecting people who are not gay to dress up and pretend to be gay, which in essence is what the NT is asking for - and a caricature of gayness at that. If I was gay I would find it deeply offensive.

Glitter and dressing up only represents part of the gay community. I used to know a lovely couple of Essex boys. One of them had done time for GBH and the only way you'd have got near him with glitter would be if he was unconscious.