'Trans' a book about transactivism

But Trisher
I havn't seen anyone on here make "an argument against transwomen?"

All I have seen is an argument against men who commit a crime, get sentenced, then decide they are a woman and request to be housed with women.

I'm a few days behind with this thread, and catching up now.

trisher did you see this info quoted by transwoman Debbie Hayton in the link you posted to Centre for Crime and Justice Studies?

Indeed, the overall profile of transgender inmates is a major cause of concern: 48 per cent were incarcerated for sex offences, compared to 19 per cent of the male prison population as a whole. When it comes to offending patterns at least, it seems that transgender women are not at all like women – who account for only 2.2 per cent of sexual offences reported to the police. No wonder the prison service has a problem.

Those statistics are horrifying.

trisher Again. The arguments are not being used against all transwomen. I pointed out in my post of 11.56 today that in most contexts the fact that people transition is not relevant, to me at least.

It is when the use their male strength against women that it matters, and when they use male privilege to get ahead of women on shortlists, or ride roughshod over women who want or need to know the biological sex of others in intimate situations that people object.

I know you don't overtly claim to be an expert, but whatever aspect of trans issues is raised you have a ready supply of articles, examples and sociological explanations of feminism to hand, as well as seeming to know a statistically disproportionate number of transpeople personally. It does give the impression that you have gone our of your way to find out as much as possible about one side of this issue, which is, of course, absolutely fine - but you can't then claim to be a simple observer of the debate with no more interest in it than the average person.

It is also a bit passive aggressive to say:
I'm simply someone who looks at thing and judges according to my own principles which basically are equality, justice, sisterhood, socialism and non-violence as the suggestion (or is it insinuation?) there is that your arguments are equated with these principles, and ipso facto those who argue against you do not hold them, or are, in fact, coming from the opposite point of view.

I, for one, hope that my own principles are based on all of the things you claim for yourself, and I have no reason to suppose that others on this thread would not claim them for themselves too.

trisher like Doodledog I'm not at all concerned about who does or does not transition until that transitioning compromises either the dignity, safety or fairness to others. On the whole I don't think transmen have an impact on natal men or their fellow natal women. Transwomen on the other hand can have a significant impact on natal women in the three areas I mention. In those three areas when there is a conflict I want the rights and expectations of natal females to take precedence. Transwomen do not seem to have any impact on natal men. Wanting fairness for natal women does not mean being anti transwomen, it is asking transwomen to consider those in the sex class they're wanting to join in a very few situations.

You have often asked how it would be policed in regards to communal showers etc. I answered upthread with self policing and gave the example of female only swim sessions. I'd hope the transwoman aware that some women wouldn't feel able to attend if she did, would show consideration and simply join a mixed sex swim class. That's classic female socialisation to put others first.

In a rape case (as the law stands now, while I agree it does need amending) I think the victim should not have her trauma added to by being compelled to call someone she regards as male she. It strikes me as verbal violence against her. Why is the misgendering of the offender more important than the victim being compelled to ignore her perception?

If you are interested in finding out about people who have detransitioned there are many examples on youtube. People telling their own stories.

Well I went back through this thread and all I can say is that if some of the arguments and posts on it are not anti-trans then I am the proverbial Dutchman (which is probably completely non-PC but who cares on this thread.)
The book being discussed is written by someone who is highly critical of all trans issues and has been pulled up for relaying information in a way that gives a false impression of what is actually happening.
Are there people who are using the process for nefarious deeds.?Most probably. Is that anything to do with transitioning in general? Well "No" anymore than a paedophile or a Dr Shipman is anything to do with most men or most doctors. Are there legalities which need to be sorted out? -well yes because the law has always lagged behind on most issues.
Am I tired of being accused of things I am not on this thread? well yes I am.
Apparently because I am able to Google efficiently and counter some of the dubious accounts posted I have too much knowledge and know too many trans people (quite how that came about I don't know. Have I mentioned knowing any?)
Apparently posting my views and principles is "passive agressive". Who knew?
But I'm tired of this thread I leave you to frighten each other about the big bad trans people who are going to swamp women. I will however leave a warning about journalists who see an opportunity to make a name for themselves and a serious amount of money by playing on people's fears and prejudices.

'Transmen fight back'

www.gdalliancecanada.com/post/trans-men-fight-back

"Transgender politics have taken a troubling turn in recent years, which most people, including many transgender people themselves, are completely oblivious to."

trisher Which 'dubious points' do you think you have countered? I sometimes wonder if you read the same thread as I do.

Posting your views and principles is not in itself passive aggressive, but linking those principles to your argument implies that those who don't share your views cannot share those principles. That is classic pass/agg, as I am sure you are aware.

Do you even read the responses of others? We have all said that we differentiate between transpeople in general and those who cause problems, yet you keep telling us that we don't (eg the comments about Shipman and paedophiles).

It feels like we are screaming into the void on threads like this. Either you are not reading our posts or you have decide that we are all lying about our support of transpeople who are not using transactivism against women, and that you know better.

Having been following this thread but not contributing as it seems that Doodledog says it all for me I'm wondering if Trisher is reading the whole thread. It comes over loud and clear that there is no problem with transwomen as long as their adopted gender doesn't impinge on 'natal' women's rights or safety.

From Kathrine Switzer's account, trisher :

"My thinking rolled on: The reason there are no intercollegiate sports for women at big universities, no scholarships, prize money, or any races longer than 800 meters is because women don’t have the opportunities to prove they want those things. If they could just take part, they’d feel the power and accomplishment and the situation would change. After what happened today, I felt responsible to create those opportunities. I felt elated, like I’d made a great discovery. In fact, I had."

KS entered a race which was previously men-only because there was no other option available to her.

By the way, although female and male runners compete together in present day marathons, there is a female winner and a male winner in each race.

Thank you Aveline. I was doubting my own ability to communicate.

trisher There will still be women who will be required to artifically control their natural hormone levels because of some ruling imposed that has no scientific basis whatsoever.

I believed that hormone tests were originally brought in because some female athletes were using drugs which did enhance their performance.
Is that not correct?

In my opinion (maybe not everyone's) natural hormone levels in natal females are the luck of the draw, and no-one should be penalized for that any more than for height or anything else.
'Natal female' being the vital requirement.

Which actually brings me to the conclusion that it must be just as terrible to be assaulted by someone with an object and to be unable to call it rape as it is to be raped by someone who claims to be a woman and insists on being called she.

Indeed.
Both are terrible situations.

The first, if carried out by a female, will be recorded in the 2.2% of sexual crimes carried out by women and now the second will also be recorded as being carried out by a woman, although that is untrue.

Soon, the statistic of 2.2% will have increased and the new figure will be quoted by those who wish to lambast females for an apparent increase in sexual aggression, despite the fact that males are now included in that figure.

This inclusion of males into figures that supposedly show trends in female behaviour is worrying across a range of issues.

If men are included in figures on pay, for instance, figures on the gender gap will be skewed. As this is a metric used to push for fairer pay for women, it will, of course, work against us.

Similarly, figures about gender imbalances in pension incomes, home ownership, in fact pretty much all financial figures will show trends for women as improving, and reduce the impetus for them to be helped.

I have left but FarNorth please don't confuse drug testing with sex verification.The testosterone test is entirely about verifying sex. It has a long and complicated history and has caused at least one suicide. It's here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports

Doodledog the points you raised at 21.28 have received little publicity so far but will have an increasing impact.
Asking for statistics that show how the gender gap has been impacted will however be seen as anti trans.

But I'm tired of this thread I leave you to frighten each other about the big bad trans people who are going to swamp women.

Trisher, I know how you feel. Theory, theory, theory. Talking in circles. Minimal, if any, real life experience.

www.cambstimes.co.uk/news/crime/transgender-rapist-jailed-6910204

How insensitive to the victim in this case. I wonder if the tune would change if it hit closer to home.

That’s the case I linked to earlier, Rosie.

GagaJo Aren’t we all theorising? After all, none of us is likely to know enough trans people to be able to do otherwise. How much ‘experience’ would qualify any of us to have an opinion, do you think? And how would we gain such experience, if we wanted to?

trisher has already said that she is not an expert but depends on Google for her information. You have written a thesis, which I assume was academic, and so on. I don’t know what more any of us can reasonably do.

Even ‘experts’ are divided in their opinions, and lay people on a discussion board are unlikely to have further information are we?

I don’t think anyone is pretending to do more than theorise - even the ‘real life experience’ you mention would either be of their own life or comments on the experience of others, surely? Either way, statistically negligible and not scientific at all, which is why this discussion is on this board and not in a peer-reviewed journal.

There is clear evidence on the strength of natal males being, in most cases, greater than that of natal females.
There is clear evidence that the vast majority of crimes of violence and crimes of sexual violence are committed by males.
Those are good reasons for housing female prisoners separately from male prisoners.
It is complete folly to house any male prisoners with females - women who have no choice at all about their living situation.

Agreed, and I don't know what 'real life experience' would make that evidence any stronger.

Here is a video (16mins) of Rhona Hotchkiss who has real life experience as a prison governor and as a lesbian feminist.

Right at the end of the video, Rhona says that the transwomen currently in Scottish prisons (although not all housed in the female estate, at the moment) comprise about 7% of the female population.
That is far higher than the proportion of transwomen in the general population, so either some males are pretending to be transwomen or transwomen are much more likely to be criminals than the general population.
Or can anyone think of another explanation?

youtu.be/KpfTBEXqGQM

FarNorth thanks for sharing that video.

Slightly off at a tangent, the feminist organisation Sex Matters, has encouraged supporters to nominate an MP or another influential person and then to buy, through the organisation that person a copy of Helen Joyce's
“Trans. When ideology meets reality.”

Link here

sex-matters.org/take-action/sponsor-a-gift-copy-of-helen-joyces-book-trans/

Why not buy Stone Butch Blues and get an account of a REAL trans person's life?

One REAL transperson's life.