Mridul Wadhwa - Male CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis

The lack of knowledge of these issues is very clear, and coming from people who talk so condescendingly to the rest of us, as though they are the experts and we are 'theorisers' and bigots it gets more wearing by the post.

I posted a link upthread to an article about the way in which lesbians are routinely abused for not wanting sex with men (when that pretty much defines what a lesbian is). It was one of many on the first page of Google hits, so there is more evidence out there, but as usual GagaJo ignored it - despite the fact that she had demanded that I reference my claims, as she didn't believe me because despite her self-proclaimed 'life experience' (backed up with thank you cards from her grateful clients), she does not know anyone who has suffered from this behaviour - her excuse being that she doesn't know every single lesbian.

trisher has posted an article from Pink News, which is mildly interesting, but at best is a partial account of the experience of one woman who needed to be 'rescued', so was clearly vulnerable and therefore susceptible to getting too attached to her rescuers. The article talks about movements and alliances and so on, as though life were one of those war games where generals move toy soldiers round with little pushers. There is nothing in the article that can be verified or cross-checked. It is an opinion piece in a generalist publication aimed at a cross-section of gay readers.

Most of us don't live like that. We deal with life as it comes, and are not constantly strategising and forming movements and alliances. We see ourselves and one another as individuals, who agree on some things and not on others. It may suit the needs of those who get pleasure or affirmation from 'organising' and 'fighting' and all the things that we have been exhorted to do on this and other threads, but many of us have been there and done that. We belong to family groups, or ones we have joined because of shared interests, not warring political factions.

Also, whereas many of the implications of women being subsumed into a group of 'non-men' -or of us being forced to allow men into our spaces - are clear, others only become apparent when they affect us, or someone we know, and the best we can do is keep a watching brief to see how things unfold, resisting things as they happen.

The obfuscating about how transwomen don't make the law is just that. A meaningless statement that addresses none of the issues we all keep putting forward.

The (at best) amoral assertion that lies are not lies unless they are uttered in direct response to a direct question says a lot about the people who hold that view, and frankly it doesn't seem worth pointing out the inherent ethical issues to people who can't or won't understand.

The idea that it is even possible to put the needs of men alongside those of women is naive at best. In an ideal world we would all just be 'people', but we are dealing with society as it is, not as we would like it to be, and there is a need for female spaces, and that need was created by men. Only some of them, of course, but still.

Finally, the lack of empathy shown towards rape victims is offensive. A rape crisis centre's whole purpose is to help to make life bearable for women who have been raped by men. Yes, there are men who have been raped by women, and yes, there are rare occasions when women assault other women sexually, and it is also the role of RCCs to help these victims, but the vast majority of cases are women who have been raped by men. People with penises, if you prefer. How little compassion must someone have not to see that for many women in that position safety means being amongst other women?

The fact that TRAs believe that TWAW is a given, and it is an opinion to which they are entitled, but can they not see past their own self-importance for long enough to recognise that it is not always their opinions that matter? That the opinions of the traumatised clients of a rape crisis centre should come first?

Callistemon

trisher

Callistemon

trisher

I think he needs to be in a secure unit somewere Callistemon (you never ased me where I would put him) possibly somewhere where he can receive proper psychiatric care. I certainly never advocated putting him in a women's prison. I just pointed out other difficulties.

Who?

Emily Claire Hari, the 50-year-old leader of the group ‘White Rabbit,’ who was previously known as Michael Hari

Sorry, I must have missed that.

I didn't know why you said Callistemon (you never ased me where I would put him) as I have no clue what that was about.

trisher
I still have no idea what you mean when you say:

Callistemon (you never ased me where I would put him)

Who, why, what, where?

I mentioned before that MW wants to redirect funding towards TW services and away from women only services.
That reads as interferring with the funding to me.

You can see in a post now above on this page form the beginning of the thread that many women only services have lost funding for not being iclusive of TW.
So in fact yes TWs have changed the way we are funded.
It is not ok.
I can't understand why a woman would think this is decent behaviour.

Why can't TW campaign for their own help then? to throw this right back at you trisher
your animosity towards natal women is starting to show isn't it?

It would be so much better if all the various genders would work together and help each other instead of bickering between themselves as to who is pinching whose funding. Every group needs help and this attitude of I am only going to help people in my group does not help society as a whole.

Probably so Jackiest but when one of those groups is loud, aggressive, verbally violent and needs to cancel out all of the other groups, in order to validate itself, peace and harmony will be a long time acoming.

It may speed things up if we set a good example for others to follow. We should get rid of the stereotyping and always help everyone no matter what gender they are.

Could you provide a little more information on that Jackiest? What stereotypes would you get rid of to begin with, for example?

Yes, of course it would be better.

But what has actually happened in the switch of funding is that natal women no longer feel safe in Rape Centres, because there are people with penises there.

Some will say that trans women with penises pose no threat. But women who have been raped will tell you that it is difficult for them to be near even trusted and loved men, like fathers or partners. That even the thought of a penis induces feelings of horror and panic.

They need to know that a Rape Centre is a place where there will be nobody with the weapon that a penis has become to them.

Like Doodledog, I believe that the emotional trauma of rape has been brushed aside by the trans lobby. It’s effects may not be rational but are very real.

I would class understanding that as “helping each other”.

A good example would be for transgender people to try to understand what it is like for a female to be raped and to offer them the compassion of a male free environment, don’t you think Jackiest?

A good start to helping each other.

Doodledog Your assertion that the vast majority of women are raped by men is absolutely true, but we should add to that that the vast majority of women are raped by men they know and have a relationship of some sort with. That doesn't make the rape any less traumatising. But this idea that there are men out there waiting to pounce on women is for the most part unfounded. Yes there may be a few but Rape Crisis says Approximately 90% of those who are raped know the perpetrator prior to the offence
Which means that 10% of rapes are committed by a stranger and that a small percentage of those will be a transwomen. Which makes you wonder why is there such a huge publicity focus on transgender and assaults to women?
You've asked the question about Transwomen campaigning before, they think they are women why should they campaign for a seperate service?
I don't understand any philosophy that says it's only one sort of rape that matters and we don't want to provide a service to rape victims unless they were born female. The only sort of system I know of that thinks one group of people more worthy of consideration than another is patriachy.

Another good start would be: when a lesbian says that she doesn't want to date, or have sex with an intact transgender "woman", that her choice to say "no thanks" isn't met with howls of "you're a bigoted and transphobic".

Your lack of comprehension and understanding is staggering trisher. How many times do you have to be told that it's NOT JUST the fear of further sexual molestation that a victim of rape feels. She DOESN'T WANT TO BE ANYWHERE NEAR A PERSON WITH A PENIS AND TESTICLES BECAUSE IT'S ONE OF THEM WHO RAPED HER IN THE FIRST PLACE AND SHE'S AFRAID OF THEM. In addition, women, who for cultural reasons, also do not want to be with a man, especially if she's already been assaulted by one.

Groundhog Day.... over and over again.......

You can’t rationalise it into numbers of men waiting to pounce, trisha.

It’s about what a raped woman feels about having a person with a penis near to her. It’s an emotional trauma.

If you’ve been badly bitten by a dog , you don’t feel safe around any dog, for a long while if ever. No use for someone to tell you very few dogs bite. You know it’s a possibility because it’s happened and the last thing you’d want is to go for help to a place that had dogs and where someone would leave you with a dog.

I’m not equating the two. Just trying to find an analogy that would help you understand why a woman who has been raped would not want to be near a penis.in any shape or form.

Chewbacca

Another good start would be: when a lesbian says that she doesn't want to date, or have sex with an intact transgender "woman", that her choice to say "no thanks" isn't met with howls of "you're a bigoted and transphobic".

As far as I know Chewbacca no one on this thread has said that, in fact it has been said many times that any sexual contact should be entered into by choice, and that anyone has the right to say "No"

Did you bother to read my link upthread?

Another rather petty analogy.

I had a bad experience in Thailand, robbed on the street with moderate violence.

Back home, I could not go to the Thai Restaurant. Ridiculous yes. Totally irrational, yes. Did I think I would get robbed there. No.

But my feelings of panic were very, very real. Association.

Why would anyone want to put a raped woman through much worse, just to insist on their own rights.

You do have to ask yourself why.

Groundhog Day.... over and over again.......

It is

What part of Penis and Testicles and XY chromosomes is difficult to understand?

If it was me and Fred Bloggs next door said he wanted to be Frederica , frankly I don't give a damn.

But if I had been traumatised by someone with a penis then I would not want a man who claims to be a woman deciding that I needed to go on a journey to face my perceived prejudices.

I would want to see someone who can empathise and cares about my lived experience, not their own.

I fully understand you have a bit of an obsession with genitalia Chewbacca most of the people I know are not aware of what is in another person's pants. As far as I know no rape victim has been forced to be counselled by anyone they felt uncomfortable with. There seems to be a perception that someone on the phone saying they couldn't guarantee the gender of a counsellor is saying there will be transgender counsellors. There may well be, but the receptionist is unlikely to know the personal history of all the counsellors (and it would be very wrong if she did) so of course she can't guarantee anything.

You do have to ask yourself why.

Because they think their rights trounce anyone else's.
Because they are self-centred and only their needs matter.
Because they have an alternative agenda and it is not putting traumatised women first.

You still haven't answered my puzzle, trisher

It’s the thought that it might be a possibility that is enough to trigger the association with the trauma. Enough to stop a women seeking help a a place where it is a possibility and once more she is powerless.

And I think if she found out after that under the clothing there was a penis, she would feel violated all over again.

I think I have to accept that you really can’t understand what the trauma of rape involves.

trisher, you have referred more than once to a trans woman ‘thinking’ they ‘are’ a woman. Can you explain how such a thought could arise in the mind of someone who has a penis and testicles? I’m talking here about trans women, as were you when you said this, not someone who thinks they ‘should’ change sex as they believe they were mis-gendered at birth.

Don't mention penis and testicles Germanshepherdsmum! It shows that you have an obsession with genitalia Doh!

If someone has XY chromosomes along with male genitalia then they are a male, whatever they may think they are.

The same goes for someone with XX chromosomes, they are female.

You cannot change your chromosomes, you can self identify as whatever you like but your birth chromosomal make-up is unchangeable.

But this idea that there are men out there waiting to pounce on women is for the most part unfounded.

Who has posted 'this idea', or suggested that they think that men are waiting to pounce on women?

We have said that when a woman has been raped she is likely to be uncomfortable with the idea of being around men, whether or not those men identify as women.

We have also said that the majority of rapes are committed by men.

Nobody has said that they have the idea that men are waiting to pounce on women - please stop putting words into our mouths.