Trans children

Aveline

My DGS went through a phase when he was at Nursery where he liked wearing the 'princess' dress from the dressing up box. It was his favourite. His Mum and the staff sensibly just let him do that. He soon tired of this and moved on to other activities.
I'd hate to think what might have happened if he'd been at one of today's 'woke' establishments.

I imagine what would happen would be what happened / happens with my GS. He wears his princess dress and roars around the house in it, with his dinosaurs and trucks. He totally ignores the doll and uses the pushchair as another car. His play is integrated.

A bit like you can't force a gay person to be straight, you can't force gender. This terrible example is evidence of that. His penis was accidentally severed during circumcision and it was decided to castrate him and raise him as a girl. Some of you may remember the case.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-11814300

I mean it's very personal for the child and the family and that why I am really reluctant to make comments on the subject of children, I think there are too many people using the subject for various agendas, I obviously am not talking about the families when I say this.

I thought it was really interesting GagaJo and the insistance of the child which the parents recognised but not without difficulty was fascinating, especially that she managed to persuade the children in her nursery to call her "she".

I do wonder what would all the people posting negative comments about trans children or going on about the gender norms for society do if their grans child insisted they were a different gender?

Galaxy No 4 year old is being given any drugs, but yes I was referring to tying up the left hand, which made many children suffer from a stutter and all sorts of nervous habits. Denying a trans child their right to be the gender they believe they are is actually much worse.

Yes, I thought it was a good article too, in giving her point of view in a rational way.

I was particularly interested in the aspect of education and schools. I think schools have become very regimented, with little opportunity for people to be individuals.

I think I was lucky to work in a school in a very diverse area, where there was no ‘norm’, a glorious mix where nobody really stood out as different because we all were, staff and pupils.

We had two children who choose a different gender to their birth gender. They seemed to be happy, to have friends and be achieving well. I know we got it wrong sometimes, as we did sometimes with the religious, cultural differences. And sometimes we had to find ways to work round different needs. As in the toilet issue. But it was an atmosphere of mutual tolerance and respect.

That’s what we all need isn’t it?

My ex husband is trans. He decided to make the complete change and live as a woman in his mid fifities after 2 failed marriages and 4 children.
I must say that while I was married to him, I had absolutely no idea! Apart from one time that he bought me a very fancy dressing gown 2 sizes too small and when I complained, he said it was fine when he tried it on!
When he first told me , he told me that he can clearly remember seeing his sister wearing pretty dresses to go out in and wishing that he could go out wearing a dress too. This was from when he was possibly about 6 or 7.
He went on to participate internationally in motorsports that even now have only about 6 female participants and has had a career as a metal engineer.
In no way were his parents to blame for how he felt or did they persuade him beyond being totally ignorant of how he felt.
Some of the comments on here have only thrown up the total ignorance that people have about transgender people and can only suggest that they take the time to actually speak to a transgender person to find out just what has made them make the biggest decision of their lives ! Who knows, you might learn something such as trans are born, not made!

Until you mentioned motorsports and engineering, I wondered if you were Kris Jenner, jaylucy!

No but some countries are saying that the affirmation model may lead to drugs surgeryetc and I think it is important to listen to those people. And also to listen to people in places such as the tavistock who are raising concerns. The detransitioners would say that what has been done to them is much worse as well trisher.

Also to be absolutely clear I think anyone should wear what they want, I think the idea of boys clothes for example is something from the 1950s.

Galaxy

Also to be absolutely clear I think anyone should wear what they want, I think the idea of boys clothes for example is something from the 1950s.

Yes. I agree. My GS wears a combination of stuff. Leggings for example. Here, they are girls clothes. In China, all kids wear them. Here, boys wear jogging bottoms and girls wear leggings. Jogging bottoms look awful. GS wears leggings AND has lovely curly hair. He's always being referred to as she. It's irrelevant. He is very boyish. Too much so at times, when you're woken at an ungodly hour with a dinosaur roar.

And that clothes and play are absolutely nothing to do with what sex you are. Girls play with trucks, etc. Transgender trend who are criticised in the article are the group who made sure that education on this matter did not include stereotypes of boys and girls.

I think that might be part of the mess we are in, it's ok for boyish also to mean quiet shy etc, and it's ok for girls to wake people with dinosaur roar. I am not having a go I am trying to unpick the mess we as a society seem to have made of gender. I blame toys r us.

Yes, I do agree Galaxy. Just, everyone born in my family has been a 'feminine' play person. Even my brother. None of us were the loud boisterous types. Hence, lack of familiarity with GS when he bucked the trend.

I have a great photo of him with the pencil he was supposed to be drawing with in his mouth, like a rose. We're all quite creative, with several artists in the family. He couldn't be less interested. It just isn't him.

Funny I was quite the opposite Gagajo brought up with a brother so played all his games (although my sporting abilities are nil I can bowl a googly), had boys who were encouraged to break gender norms but much preferred cars, then got a GD who is creative, wants to chat about everything and plays differently. She is fortunately just going through a stage of rejecting pink, but I must say it is difficult to find clothes that haven't some pink on them.

I'm very glad I don't have a girl now, because EVERYTHING is gendered for girls. I guess I'd shop for a lot of stuff in the boys section if I did.

Last time I went out to get some stuff for DGS, I also looked in the girls section (because, why not?) and everything was frilly or as you say, pink or amplified in some way. WHY? Kids play.

Although, the need to put dinosaurs or vehicles or super heros on all boys stuff is also irritating. My GS does love that stuff, but what about kids that don't?

I wonder why it happened, presumably money, if you look at the 80/ 90s it was all about breaking norms, all the men I liked had long hair and many wore make up, I have not seen a single girl in our local secondary school who doesnt have long hair.

I think that young people have always (well, as long as I can remember, and based on films and photos of before that) tried to be 'individual' whilst all looking exactly the same?.

I also wonder about the 'pink' thing. It is definitely a pattern that most girls go through a phase of loving pink, wanting pink clothes, lunchboxes, bedding and so on, then suddenly hating it. My daughter and her friends did it in the 90s and I see little ones doing it now. It can't be 'natural', and it's probably not fashion, as there is 25 years between my children and the little ones in the family. The toys and brands etc are not the same, the parents are different, the external pressures have shifted, but the phenomenon remains.

Nothing to do with the issue really, but interesting nonetheless, I think.

I think there are quite a few "reality" shows now where all the girls are a perfect shape, wear lots of make up and have long hair.The boys have toned bodies, short hair and may have make up but it is discreet. They all wax or remove body hair by some means. It is rare to see anyone who looks very different.

Girls being Tom boys climbing trees,playing with cars etc and boys wanting a princess dress or a doll is not a sign they are transgender! Children do not become transgender they just are !! It is not something that happens , it has always been there.
However ,I do wonder if some children are simply confused, they are exposed to so much in school, is it all too much for their immature minds to process? An immensely complex issue!

Doodledog

I think that young people have always (well, as long as I can remember, and based on films and photos of before that) tried to be 'individual' whilst all looking exactly the same?.

I also wonder about the 'pink' thing. It is definitely a pattern that most girls go through a phase of loving pink, wanting pink clothes, lunchboxes, bedding and so on, then suddenly hating it. My daughter and her friends did it in the 90s and I see little ones doing it now. It can't be 'natural', and it's probably not fashion, as there is 25 years between my children and the little ones in the family. The toys and brands etc are not the same, the parents are different, the external pressures have shifted, but the phenomenon remains.

Nothing to do with the issue really, but interesting nonetheless, I think.

I don't think there is a 'pink phase' pattern at all. Neither my DD or 4 nieces growing up in the 80s/90s showed any sign of excessive devotion to pink, nor, BTW, did I or my sister. If it is a 'natural' pattern girls in the Victorian era would have been extremely pee'd off because pink was a 'boy's colour' back then. It's culturally induced. Which is the point I was trying to make earlier today.

I agree that children should be able to choose the way they want to live, including forms of address and that there should be far more acceptance of differing sexualities and they way that they are expressed. But I can't feel at all comfortable with physical interventions before a child has completed puberty.

I have no problem with trans men or women, but I have a problem with having what constitutes a 'woman' redefined to suit the trans agenda.

I was what was called a “tomboy” as a child- hated dolls, climbed trees , wore shorts, insisted on a “butch” haircut, if I’d known about transgender I’m sure I’d have insisted I was a boy. When puberty hit it all changed. Thank god I didn’t have the option of drug treatment. Clothes, hair , toys, fine - children should try everything and not be constricted. I’m not convinced about parents supporting a child in their every whim though would you support your anorexic child in starving herself- no, you’d seek psychiatric help. I’ve heard of cases where adults “identify” as children- do we just say fine you can go to nursery- no we’d think they needed psychiatric help.

vegansrock could you explain how a 2 year old child would know about transgender?

Re the colour pink.

I never saw the appeal of pink at all when I was a child, teenager, young woman and so on.
But over the past couple of years (menopausal) I’ve started to really like the colour pink (for random things, like phone covers etc)
It has started me wondering if a liking for pink may be hormonal?

I don't think there is a 'pink phase' pattern at all. Neither my DD or 4 nieces growing up in the 80s/90s showed any sign of excessive devotion to pink, nor, BTW, did I or my sister. If it is a 'natural' pattern girls in the Victorian era would have been extremely pee'd off because pink was a 'boy's colour' back then. It's culturally induced. Which is the point I was trying to make earlier today.

I don't think that I (or my sister) had a 'pink phase', although I very much doubt that we'd have been indulged if we had! It was definitely the case for my lot and their friends, though, as well as for my sister's children and their friends. They are in a different part of the country, so it's not a local thing, and it holds true today - at the age of four or five the little ones in the family want everything in pink, and by seven or eight they'd rather have any other colour.

I didn't say it was 'natural' - in fact I said the opposite - and just wondered what it could be, given the geographical, time and other differences between the children. Of course it has to be culturally induced, but I don't think that four year olds are particularly susceptible to advertising, are they? I don't think mine saw a lot of TV at that age, but I may be misremembering. And anyway, if it were an advertising-induced thing, why would they stop it at seven or eight when there would still be money to be made? The Argos catalogue, and the aisles at ToysRUs were very gender specific if I remember rightly, so maybe they picked it up from there. I'm just thinking aloud though (sorry), so ignore me?

trisher Children learn gender identity from a very young age, from birth this is reinforced “ good girl, good boy”etc From about 18 months a child will know what gender they are, but they do not understand the permanence of biological sex, So a girl might say “ when I grow up
I’ll be a boy”, or if shown a picture of a boy with long hair might identify him as a girl. A child’s knowledge of the difference between sex and gender roles might not be clarified until after the age of 7 and by then a lot of learned behaviour will have occurred. If a child of 2 claims to be a different gender to their biological sex this does not mean it is fixed for ever more. Maybe it will be , but there is a high probability of this changing at puberty. This is why I am against giving hormonal drugs to young children. They can wear what they like, call themselves what they like etc of course, but we shouldn’t go down the road of trying to treat such desires using a medical model.

I think there is a chance that if a child is even 'ever so slightly' different to any other children they might get bullied. They could be too fat, too thin, too pretty, too clever etc. I was very clever as as child and got bullied. I was neither girly or tomboy, never sporty. I don't think that in the 50's we knew what 'trans' was although young boys, especially if they played with dolls or were a bit 'girlie' and girls who liked rough and tumble were called 'tomboys' both did get called more rude names, and not just by other children but also by some adults. I think that children shouldn't be steered one way or the other and I think that be puberty they know what they are and what they want. When this happens they should be given all the support they need both by their families and the relevant authorities.