Services for female survivors of sexual violence should not be inclusive of trans-identified males

Baggs

Jackiest

Everyone who suffers sexual violence needs support irrespective of what gender they are.

Or even what sex.

Yes it gets far to complicated and that is why I try not to divide the world up by gender or sex but just treat people as people. As 99% of the time their gender or sex is irrelevant.

Jackiest

Everyone who suffers sexual violence needs support irrespective of what gender they are.

Or even what sex.

One of the services I was directed to for recovery from sexual violence some years back was a support group with a group therapy element.

We would discuss many elements of our abuse in detail. It was part of the therapeutic approach.

I would have been unable to feel comfortable to do that with someone in the room who had the physical body of a fully intact adult male.

It is access to services like the one I describe which are the point of distress and contention in this discussion. I completely understand that being directed to "separate" services distresses women who are trans. I also understand that women who are not trans may find the services simply unworkable if women who are early in transition - or who choose not to make any physical transition - are also present at the time.

If you are agreeing to seperate buildings for refuges etc but I dont think you are. So dont worry we havent agreed yet

WOW Galaxy did we just agree????

I think though as with all these different services it is a learning curve and the only way to find out what the demand for a particular service is is to provide the service using the expertise and knowledge you already have and then allow natural seperation to take place if it is needed. That is obvously what happened with Shakti. As services for transpeople and men are very much in the early stages it would seem sensible to allow them to use some of the facilities and knowledge already available.

Yes I see. I think as long as you retain the specialist knowledge as well, so for example those providing services for women have years of experience behind them and its important not to let go of that, I would say that would be the same for say services for gay men. There is an organisation in my area that specialises in providing sexual health services for gay men, it was established as a tiny charity during the Aids crisis, it has years of experience of that client group, and years of representing the issues that face that group.

Galaxy

Well of course different buildings is fine. But that's what we are are saying should be provided. There are refuges for men by the way. There is one in my area. I cant remember the name of the woman who set up the first one.

Yes I just did not want a mish mash of 101 different organisations half overlapping and with gaps that the vulnerable could fall through with no support.

trisher

Shakti was set up by a group of black women who were working in women's aid and identified a need for services which dealt with BME women. They fundraised to do it.
I suppose any group could do the same
But as the number of men and trans people using such services is assumed to be small wouldn't that be difficult for them?

And isn't that exactly how refuges and rape centres for women started, women fundraised to set them up?

I'm sure plenty would support fundraising for other groups. Most of us contribute to causes we believe in, whether we are directly affected or not.

Well of course different buildings is fine. But that's what we are are saying should be provided. There are refuges for men by the way. There is one in my area. I cant remember the name of the woman who set up the first one.

The title said sexual violence, not sure if it is meant to be domestic violence or rape, I assumed it was any sexual violence.

Are we now by the way discussing domestic abuse provision and not rape provision?

Jackiest

Everyone who suffers sexual violence needs support irrespective of what gender they are.

Yes everyone should have support trans or not trans, male or female.

Shakti was set up by a group of black women who were working in women's aid and identified a need for services which dealt with BME women. They fundraised to do it.
I suppose any group could do the same
But as the number of men and trans people using such services is assumed to be small wouldn't that be difficult for them?

Rosie it is the splitting up that I am trying to avoid as causes problems with people wanting to identify as one thing or the other and others don't want them to. But if there is just one organisation that everyone uses then that avoids the problem. The one organisation may have different departments for different needs and they can be in different buildings to enable the users to feel safer. This way everyone has the support that is best suited to them. And no one will fall between the gaps that having completely separate services would leave.

It didnt work within the HIV services that I worked in, and that was just a drop in, certainly in refuges it would be impossible to implement. Traumatised women certainly in their early stages of trauma need a space free from men. That's why the exclusions within the equality act are there.

But why the need to be exclusively separate away from the inclusive service? If BME women and LGBT need separate facilities according to MW, why not women who want to be in an exclusively female setting?

Shakti Women's Aid is a member of Scottish Women's Aid it provides specialist services linked to BME women in particular other languages, immigrant and cultural abuse. I would imagine they would direct any one needing specialist services to the right area.

That's it Esspee. I this situation it's how the woman feels that matters not how some transgender manager feels.

If a woman gets raped she is surely not expected to have to accept the gender (whatever is meant by that) of just anyone.
She needs to feel safe.

What about the specialist services for BAME and LGBT? How do you feel about them trisher ?
Jackiest you'll find MW was quite happy to have an entirely separate service for BAME at Shakti Women's Aid in Edinburgh. How does that sit with you?

Galaxy Just because it is one organisation it does not mean that it can not have specialised departments so the same people are not trying to do everything. By making it one organisation no one is missed and no one has to be “nice”, “kind” or ideologically or politically in line with those providing those services. as the one organisation covers everyone.

As for MW from the link you gave So for some organisations they might be at a place where they are actually able to have open conversations with survivors, if they wish and are willing to engage around what equality and diversity means, whether it's in the context of group and if survivors bring it up in the context of healing, but many of us are not really there. And if we do it, then it's always, and should be, survivor led.
Underlining is mine. She has never sought to impose anything. She does believe addressing bias and looking at inclusion might at the right time in counselling help women realise that rape is not just a personal crime but is political and linked to domination and patriachy

Yes absolutely Jackiest, but trying to meet everyone's needs in one service will result in no ones needs being met. Something very similar happened with services for HIV/AIDS in the 80s and 90s, a number of very different groups were affected and they needed specialist services. I have said before that I think we badly let gay men down with that approach but thinking about it I suspect intravenous drug users were also let down. This doesnt mean that everyone at the time wasnt doing their best in almost impossible circumstances (often unpaid) but it meant that sometimes people didnt get their needs met. Sometimes you need specialist services.

She openly admits Jean Hatchett isn't her real name FarNorth. She is never photographed in an identifiable way. There are a few things about it goggzilla.wordpress.com/2019/10/14/vonny-watts-jean-hatchet-and-ccrc-update/
Someone else says she is from Brighton,