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Services for female survivors of sexual violence should not be inclusive of trans-identified males

(43 Posts)
FarNorth Wed 22-Sep-21 09:19:42

Jean Hatchet puts it so well :

"[T]o suggest that women who have just been subjected to an act of sexual violence must first “learn” to respect the identity choices of male people, before they can receive help after a male person has raped them, is callous and vicious in the extreme. No service for women should withhold help from women who are not “nice”, “kind” or ideologically or politically in line with those providing those services. When a woman has been raped, it is not the time to accuse her of “wrong think”." .

Aveline Wed 22-Sep-21 09:24:54

Absolutely true.

Oopsadaisy1 Wed 22-Sep-21 09:47:48

Is the service going to be withheld unless the person who has been raped conforms to these PC ‘tests’ ?

Are they really going to withhold counselling until a written or oral test has been performed on the victim after a rape? And then tell them that they are sorry but until they think differently any help will be withheld.

FarNorth Wed 22-Sep-21 10:04:21

I don't think so Oopsadaisy.
However, if the service includes trans-identified males as clients and staff, it may as well do that.

Mridul Wadhwa is quoted in the link saying " You have large groups of survivors, some are not using our services because they see us as trans inclusive and feeling that they may be exposed to… er… to an issue that they are not prepared to deal with.".

I don't know what 'large groups of survivors' he means. I'd have thought that experiencing sexual violence and deciding what help to seek would be a very individual thing.

However, if women are not seeking help because they know they may be challenged to accept that a man is actually a woman, the Sexual Violence Services are getting it wrong.

Jackiest Wed 22-Sep-21 10:51:12

Everyone who suffers sexual violence needs support irrespective of what gender they are.

trisher Wed 22-Sep-21 10:51:44

Rape services should be for everyone. Women get raped, transwomen get raped, men get raped. It is not an exclusively female experience.

trisher Wed 22-Sep-21 11:03:21

I don't like the idea that anyone-like Jean Hatchett uses anonimity to protect herself but is quite prepared to publicly insult, abuse and misrepresent the views of others who are known to the public and therefore subjected to all the abuse and trolling she claims to need protection from. It seems too me to be absolutely unfeminist to expose others to the sort of abuse you feel might harm you

Rosie51 Wed 22-Sep-21 11:14:09


Rape services should be for everyone. Women get raped, transwomen get raped, men get raped. It is not an exclusively female experience.

I don't think anyone is claiming it is an exclusively female experience, but I'd bet my life on it that more women are raped than the sum total of transwomen and men, and let's not forget transmen or are they somehow immune? What some are saying, and with which I totally agree, is a woman who has been raped (which by legal definition requires penetration by a penis ) should be able to access a service where she is guaranteed to only encounter females, and can be certain her counsellor, or medical examiner is female if that is what she wants.

FarNorth Wed 22-Sep-21 11:43:28

Sexual Violence Services for women have always been female-only and have used the legal exemptions of the Equality Act to stay that way.

They should not be changed to accommodate male people, whether those male people identify as women or not.
In particular, they should not have male staff who claim to be women and who want to correct the clients' thinking as part of the 'service'.

There is nothing to prevent any person or organisation from setting up services for males and/or transwomen (who are also male).

FarNorth Wed 22-Sep-21 11:46:08

Here is a link to the transcript of the whole talk given by Mridul Wadhwa, CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis and transwoman (male) :

Iam64 Wed 22-Sep-21 11:54:57


Rape services should be for everyone. Women get raped, transwomen get raped, men get raped. It is not an exclusively female experience.

The vast number of sexual offences are by men, their victims are largely women and children.
We need to be able to discuss that, and the needs of trans people without dismissing the research that confirms, most perpetrators are men.

Jackiest Wed 22-Sep-21 12:00:45

I find this attitude of only giving help to us women and and the rest have to look after themselves worrying. I will help anyone, I do not ask their gender first and I do not turn my back on people that need help just because they are not the same gender as me.

trisher Wed 22-Sep-21 12:07:35

Setting up different sexual abuse services implies that there is something different or other about the abuse. As for who actually perpetrated the abuse surely the service is there to meet the needs of the victim and should not consider who the abuser was
Male rape and trans rape are largely unreported.
In my opinion as well the rape definition shoud be legaly redefined . Some sexual abuse includes the use of objects.
This is interesting

Rosie51 Wed 22-Sep-21 12:09:11

From the transcript linked to by FarNorth
We live in very dangerous times for trans people, I have to be really honest. I know that people keep saying is it really, but as a trans person, I get to define whether a time, or an era is dangerous or not. And this is.

And yet that same authority is never conceded to women.

Jackiest it's not a case of only helping women and leave the rest, it's a case of providing a specialist service to those women that require it ie only females, alongside wider services. In the transcript referred to MW states there should be inclusive services where everyone is welcome and specialist services such as for BAME or LGBT. Why should women who don't fit either of those criteria be excluded from having their needs met?

Galaxy Wed 22-Sep-21 12:12:40

97 % of violent sexual crime is committed by men. Specialist services exist for a reason. If there is no need for specialist services then I assume there is no need for specific organisation to support gay men or trans people etc. Or is it just women who must give up their services.

FarNorth Wed 22-Sep-21 12:14:53

I wasn't aware that Jean Hatchet is a pseudonym trisher. How do you know that it is?

I don't think that she was doing what you say (to publicly insult, abuse and misrepresent the views of others).
The views of Mridul Wadhwa can be seen in the link I gave.
JH quoted and commented on them.

Rosie51 Wed 22-Sep-21 12:24:25

trisher You have said before you want the rape definition altered but we have to work with the law as it stands until such time a new legal definition is enacted.

I'm still at a loss as to how you can say As for who actually perpetrated the abuse surely the service is there to meet the needs of the victim and should not consider who the abuser was and if the needs of the victim necessitate them not having to be seen/treated by a man because it was a man who raped them? Do that victim's sensibilities count for less than any other victim? So you'd be against MW's view that counsellors of BAME origin can be a comfort to victims also of BAME origin because of their greater understanding?

Jackiest Wed 22-Sep-21 12:24:42

The same service should be provided to all. It may be that it has to be provided differently to the various different groups but it should be there and be provided by the same organisation so that victims do not fall between the classifications and get excluded.

trisher Wed 22-Sep-21 12:33:39

She openly admits Jean Hatchett isn't her real name FarNorth. She is never photographed in an identifiable way. There are a few things about it
Someone else says she is from Brighton,

Galaxy Wed 22-Sep-21 12:39:53

Yes absolutely Jackiest, but trying to meet everyone's needs in one service will result in no ones needs being met. Something very similar happened with services for HIV/AIDS in the 80s and 90s, a number of very different groups were affected and they needed specialist services. I have said before that I think we badly let gay men down with that approach but thinking about it I suspect intravenous drug users were also let down. This doesnt mean that everyone at the time wasnt doing their best in almost impossible circumstances (often unpaid) but it meant that sometimes people didnt get their needs met. Sometimes you need specialist services.

trisher Wed 22-Sep-21 12:40:20

As for MW from the link you gave So for some organisations they might be at a place where they are actually able to have open conversations with survivors, if they wish and are willing to engage around what equality and diversity means, whether it's in the context of group and if survivors bring it up in the context of healing, but many of us are not really there. And if we do it, then it's always, and should be, survivor led.
Underlining is mine. She has never sought to impose anything. She does believe addressing bias and looking at inclusion might at the right time in counselling help women realise that rape is not just a personal crime but is political and linked to domination and patriachy

Jackiest Wed 22-Sep-21 12:59:01

Galaxy Just because it is one organisation it does not mean that it can not have specialised departments so the same people are not trying to do everything. By making it one organisation no one is missed and no one has to be “nice”, “kind” or ideologically or politically in line with those providing those services. as the one organisation covers everyone.

Rosie51 Wed 22-Sep-21 12:59:32

What about the specialist services for BAME and LGBT? How do you feel about them trisher ?
Jackiest you'll find MW was quite happy to have an entirely separate service for BAME at Shakti Women's Aid in Edinburgh. How does that sit with you?

Esspee Wed 22-Sep-21 13:04:16

If a woman gets raped she is surely not expected to have to accept the gender (whatever is meant by that) of just anyone.
She needs to feel safe.

Aveline Wed 22-Sep-21 13:09:12

That's it Esspee. I this situation it's how the woman feels that matters not how some transgender manager feels.