when gender blinds us to sex

Thinking about it, surely the "automatically counted" thing is at the discretion of the police and prison authorities.
The exceptions in the Equality Act could be applied to exclude male-bodied people from being accommodated with females, for reasons of privacy and safety.

Privacy is something that prison authorities, and many others, seem to disregard in connection with women prisoners.
It seems that being reasonably sure that a male prisoner (claiming to be a woman) is not likely to physically assault women is all that's necessary for him to be shunted straight in.
(And we know they get that wrong anyway.)

The GRC was introduced as far as I recall as an alternative to sanctioning same sex marriage. Now that everybody is equal in the marriage stakes there is simply no need any more so I'd agree with you FarNorth. It was a homophobic measure that has no place in a decent society. It's no surprise that Iran leads the world for transgender surgery and sex reclassification, it still punshes male homosexuality by death, and females by lashing.

Well, I almost always disagree strongly with what Priti Patel says, but this time, in my opinion, she has got it right, and full credit to her.

Definitely they should Mollygo.

Chewbacca

In 2020, in English prisons, 74 male prisoners who identify as women were serving sentences for sex offences compared to 125 women. Of those 125 women, some may be people who may be biologically male but have a GRC as they are automatically counted as being female.

Some males being automatically counted as female is completely ridiculous.

Getting a GRC - Gender Recognition Certificate - doesn't have to include having had genital surgery (which many people believe it does).
I don't advocate forcing anyone to have surgery, in order to get a certificate.
I think the GRC should be abolished.

FarNorth the horrific crimes mentioned should also be classified by the sex of the offender.

The USA is also rushing towards the complete inclusion of every male who wishes, to be accepted as female.
What the USA does should not necessarily be copied.
I don't agree that the crime of rape should be re-classified.
I do think that the other horrific crimes of the type you mention trisher should be classed at the same level as rape.

As soon as you go down the path of recording some crimes by sex but not others you're on a slippery slope. Should GBH be recorded by sex, but assault not? Record every crime by the biological sex of the offender, then we'll have clear data that is accurate and useful.

Congratulations to Priti for tackling this matter. I did know that the 436 rapes covered a number of years, but I’m glad it hasn’t been postulated as an excuse for it not to be important.

If a transwoman doesn't pay her TV licence does her sex matter?

Yes, if it is being documented as a crime, because it is a fact about that person.
It should be correctly recorded.
Or are you suggesting sex should be correctly recorded for some crimes and not for others, trisher?

Ante-natally!

trisher

Personally I thnk our rape law needs completely revising it is old fashioned and fails to take account of some horrific attacks which can't be described as rape. The USA has revised theirs it now reads “The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”
I think there is a case for recording sex crimes with the sex of the offender, but I'm not sure this needs to be done for other offences. If a transwoman doesn't pay her TV licence does her sex matter?

On the face of it no. But the point of collecting data on things like this is that we don’t know, so the more demographic information we have the better.

We know, for instance, that women’s crimes (eg shoplifting and non-payment of tv licenses and fines) are crimes of poverty. Unless we have data, how do we know if transwomen suffer the same levels of poverty as heterosexual women? Gay people, on the whole, have higher disposable incomes, or used to the last time I saw the data. Not all of the data is relevant all of the time, but if it is not collected thoroughly in the first place social scientists can’t find patterns that may be useful, and benefit any or all groups, as (if there is political will), measures can be put in place to alleviate the issues, or therapy can be targeted better if applicable.

Demographic data such as sexuality or ethnic origin is not added to questionnaires out of curiosity - it is there for targeting reasons. If no gay people or members of a particular ethic group are going to a theatre, the marketing team can find ways of reaching those groups or tailoring their offer accordingly. If women from a set of postcodes suffer more miscarriages than those other areas, special care can be taken ante-nasally, whilst reasons and cures are investigated.

I agree that rape should be reclassified, but not that the sex of the perpetrator is irrelevant, for the reasons outlined above, and out of respect for the victim, who should not be forced to lie in court.

Chewbacca

AcornFairy GRC is a Gender Recognition Certificate and is the document that is issued to trans to show that "a person has satisfied the criteria for legal recognition in the acquired gender".

Thank you Chewbacca.

I have never understood why Trans gender people are so ashamed of being what they are and want to pretend they are biological what they have transitioned to. Surely being a Trans person is a clear gender definition in itself and lies along side the biological definitions.

Thanks Jane that's why the data matters. The population of women in prison is generally very different to the population of men in prison, we need accurate data whatever the crimes for those reasons. I think the crimes of men actually are often linked to previous head injuries and I think more research in this would be useful. But we need to know the sex of people to do this.

AcornFairy GRC is a Gender Recognition Certificate and is the document that is issued to trans to show that "a person has satisfied the criteria for legal recognition in the acquired gender".

Sorry I have done that thing where I have wandered off topic but I thought it was ludicrous in the first place they were being recorded as women, so it is a good change but it's interesting what you have posted trisher regarding classification in US

I think some of you may find this interesting

More women are sent to prison to serve a sentence for theft than for violence against the person, robbery, sexual offences, drugs, and motoring offences combined

Women in prison are highly likely to be victims as well as offenders. Over half the women in prison report having suffered domestic violence with 53% of women reporting having experienced emotional, physical or sexual abuse as a child.

If you read deeper into why women commit crime, many have been abused even as children. They have suffered complex traumas that really need to be dealt with effectively before they commit any crimes. It is also a sad fact that prison might actually be a place of safety

Chewbacca

In 2020, in English prisons, 74 male prisoners who identify as women were serving sentences for sex offences compared to 125 women. Of those 125 women, some may be people who may be biologically male but have a GRC as they are automatically counted as being female.

Please can you translate "GRC"? My Googling produced "Governance, Risk and Compliance", which leaves me baffled. The subject matter of this thread is an area I admit to understand only superficially so enlightenment would be much appreciated.

Everyone, is biologically male or female, nothing can change that. Adjustments can be made chemically and surgically, but biological sex remains unchanged.

If someone biologically male remains genitally intact. They are men and if they rape or sexually attack someone they should be prosecuted as men.

Gender is an entirely social construct. In an inclusive world it wouldn't exist as everyone could dress, act, identifiy with whoever they like. Only biological sex is immutable.

I am in complete agreement with PP on this issue

As it was me who started the thread that I now find has been closed, I am annoyed to find it closed without any notification. I had given up reading it as the same things were being repeated by the same people.

I didn't know about this. I'm glad it's being addressed and that concerns about women's safety are being taken seriously. I do hope the tide is turning.
Thanks for petition link.

I look back with fond nostalgia to the days when the use of ‘gender’ was largely confined to the foreign language nouns I was learning - masculine, feminine and neuter.

Another cheer here for common sense at last.

I don’t know why the last thread was pulled, but I think it’s very bad manners to delete things like that without warning. People had put time and effort into posts, and for someone to come along and effectively rip them up is at best disrespectful and at worst downright rude.

I went for a bath and came back to find it gone. No explanation, no comments on individual posts, nothing.

It does nothing to foster good relationships between posters if nobody knows if someone complained, or why. It may also put people off bothering to make an effort with their posts if they know that they may just disappear for no obvious reason.

If GN want a site with anodyne threads considered suitable for old ladies they should say so - there are robust discussions on this topic on Mumsnet that go uncensored.

If a post is libellous or offensive in other ways, I can understand the post going. But there is no need to pull a whole thread if this is supposed to be a discussion group.

I think in any crime sex either matters or it doesnt. So as far as I can remember women shoplift more than men, it might be important to know that in looking at the reasons for shoplifting for example. It might not as well but either the data is useful or it isnt.