Staying on topic- threads in general

Chewbacca

^What rights do they want?^ That don't reduce, minimise or eradicate the rights that other groups have fought long and hard for.... for example: the rights for women to have a relationship with any one they wish, without fear of being stigmatised as anti trans.

And there you have a classic example of the things which "will" happen if transpeople live in an equal society. Only they won't because most people do not want a relationship with someone who has been pressured into having sex with them. Why do people persist in believing a few transactivists represent the whole?

Is that all? The right to self ID? They wouldn't be wanting to then access single sex spaces on the basis of that self ID would they? Because that would destroy those single sex places and remove a right women fought for. And as you agreed on a different thread it's their gender that changes not their sex

Why do people persist in believing a few transactivists represent the whole? Have you read, amongst others, Nancy Kelly of Stonewall's latest "think therapy" she thinks people need to address?

So what was the process they wanted, and how would it differ from ‘deciding to change gender’?

Given the concerns of many women, how would this process ensure that simply identifying as female isn’t used as a means to enter female spaces when women want male-bodied people around?

"will" happen is happening.

Why do people persist in believing a few transactivists represent the whole? Perhaps because those few are loud, aggressive and overbearing and want to shut down anyone who dares to disagree or question them (Kathleen Stock? David Chappelle? Maya Forstater? Marion Miller?) The message from the few activists is quite clearly: women move over, shut up, give in.

And if you refuse or even dare speak out against it you'll be subjected to appalling threats of physical, often sexual violence.

Wow.

FarNorth

Multiple FacePalms ???

'Sex' = biological sex (female or male)

'Gender' = archaic sexist stereotypes

I’ve been away, came back, read the last page and have since just managed to read through these. Doodledog please don’t shoot yourself!
FarNorth that’s a very clear post.
Sex -you can’t change it. If you are female, you are female. You are a woman, and can be a mother or not.
You can SAY you are a man, or a father, you can add or remove bits, grow a beard and have a deep voice and a hairy chest, but you are still a female.

For those who can’t tell the difference, Sex is immutable, Gender you can swap day to day, hour to hour, minute to minute. You can SAY you are any gender.
What you shouldn’t be able to do is erode the rights of those who are the sex you wish you were just because you want to change gender.
The horrifying thing is that it’s a minority of trans and their fans who want to do the eroding, who physically and verbally attack females for speaking the truth about sex being immutable and female rights being eroded and applaud each other for doing so, throwing the language of hate at anyone who disagrees. Almost as bad - the media who give them the publicity they so ardently seek.
I believe the majority of trans don’t want the publicity or to stir up anger against others. They simply want to live their lives in peace.
Possibly some posters on here think that’s wrong.

Doodledog

So what was the process they wanted, and how would it differ from ‘deciding to change gender’?

Given the concerns of many women, how would this process ensure that simply identifying as female isn’t used as a means to enter female spaces when women want male-bodied people around?

Here's a link to the process now and a brief explanation of what people want to see removed.
www.ngalaw.co.uk/knowledge-centre/changing-your-legal-gender-in-the-uk
I must say I'm surprised that anyone who is speaking out about trans issues hasn't bothered to investigate the reality of the situation!

Excellent post Mollygo, especially What you shouldn’t be able to do is erode the rights of those who are the sex you wish you were just because you want to change gender.

Yes MollyGo it is a minority of trans activists who are winding people up to a level of hysteria.

It's really not worthwhile giving them the time of day. Especially not worthwhile seeking out their views.

We all cross paths with trans people, we just can't tell so it's hard to know that those are the everyday voices we should be listening to.

*I believe the majority of trans don’t want the publicity or to stir up anger against others. They simply want to live their lives in peace.
Possibly some posters on here think that’s wrong.*

I believe it to be the case, but as far as I'm aware, there has not been a peer-review study that has asked a representative sample of transpeople what they think. So many of the 'most transpeople' comments on here are speculation. The transpeople I know (and, as I suspect is true of most people, that is not a high number) most definitely want to live in peace, and are worried about the way in which this has become a tribal issue, or indeed an 'issue' at all.

The loud voices are always the ones that get heard, and are the ones shouting for changes in the language, for transpeople's rights to have sex with whomever they like, as anyone who doesn't fancy them is 'phobic' (a touch of the INCELs there?), and for women to have no safe spaces of our own.

The transpeople who 'have always been among us', and who would need someone to 'look under their clothes' before anyone could tell that they were trans seem to me very different (although as I say, I am basing this on a small sample). They would not dream of pushing their way into spaces where they weren't wanted, and completely understand the need for privacy, dignity and freedom from fear - perhaps more than most.

If a simpler way to self-id were all they wanted, I doubt that many people would be anything other than supportive, and I feel very sorry for those who genuinely only want that.

trisher, please stop being unpleasant. It's not that I haven't 'bothered' to know what people want - it's more that I don't pretend to know more than what transpeople personally known to me have said, and I don't pretend to speak for 'most people', be they trans or otherwise.

I asked how the process 'they want' differs from 'wanting to change gender' like you said, and also how the process would allay the fears of women who don't want male-bodied people in their safe spaces. You haven't answered either question.

'peer-reviewed' ?

So most of the transpeople I know are gender critical, they know you cant change sex, and are comfortable with womens spaces such as prisons, refuges and sport being only for women. So I take it it's ok for me to listen to those transpeople.

trisher, please stop being unpleasant. It's not that I haven't 'bothered' to know what people want - it's more that I don't pretend to know more than what transpeople personally known to me have said, and I don't pretend to speak for 'most people', be they trans or otherwise
If I have been unpleasant by questioning why anyone should post about transissues without bothering to investigate what on earth have those people who have called me "mysoginistic" and "anti-feminist" who have cast aspersions on my support for women and women's rights been?

I think it is clear from my posts that I have made myself aware of trans issues - 'investigate' is a bit strong, as I am not obsessed by them.

Many of the aims of the TRA movement are misogynistic - how could it not be so to want to remove female spaces and modify the language so that women are erased, and the very concept of what it is to be a woman is unclear. I note that you never did give an explanation for what you think that transpeople are rejecting or laying claim to - beyond that 'they 'present as' women, and they 'stand next to you' politically.

It might be easier to see how your feelings are in any way connected to feminism if you were able to say what a 'woman' actually is, and what, in your opinion, 'transitioning' actually involves.

Agreed, Galaxy.

Why is trisher responsible for your Google search doodledog?

Please stop telling her she is not a feminist if she doesn't align with your thinking.

You aren't a spikes person for feminism and all views are valid

Spikes person.. Weirdly appropriate

Bit like me saying bogited the other day. Might talk to Merriam and Webster about it

So you were quite willing to accept the much publicised concept that self ID meant just decidingto change gender when you feel like it, because you aren't "obsessed" with transissues so didn't bother to discover any more. But you constantly refer to transwomen removing female spaces and erasing women. I would have thought anyone using such emotive language would want to know more.
As for the definition of "woman" well I thought we were in favour of challenging gender norms and the word woman is a gender based title, so if it's meaning is changing isn't that a good thing? Is it possible to challenge gender norms if we continue to use old fashioned language and definitions. If the word woman changes doesn't the word man also have to change. Isn't that progress towards the eradication of gender?

As far as rights go non-binary people are not permitted to use the term on any documents. Legally recognising them would be a real step towards gender neutral policies.

VioletSky

Spikes person.. Weirdly appropriate

Bit like me saying bogited the other day. Might talk to Merriam and Webster about it

That's a whole new dictionaryVioletSky it would be great.

Feminism, at its core, fights oppression.

Now there seem to be two branches, one that fights against oppression and includes trans people and one that does not include trans people believing that trans people existing somehow oppresses women .

Yet, many trans are indeed feminists and many men these days also include themselves in the ranks of feminists and support the fight against oppression.

Those who do not accept the right of trans people to self identify and take that further by alienating other actual feminists are doing nothing but silencing other feminists and saying "you can't sit with us"... Not helpful in the grand scheme of things to try throw others out of your own ranks for not aligning with the same views.

Mostly not helpful because you can not achieve that. I am still a feminist.

The reverse argument has not happened on this thread or others, neither trisher or myself have said that you cannot be a feminist if you are not trans inclusive.

So why isn't anyone actually thinking about the divisive damage these conversations are doing instead of focusing on two discussion boards out of many where some views have more voices than others as if that proves a quality of rightness.

It doesn't.

Not all demographics are represented by either.

Basically what happens on here seems to be that most posters have no issue with trans who make no attempt to
1. erode natal women’s rights to safe spaces,
2. to jobs and
3. to places e.g.sport where female against TW creates an unfair advantage for the TW, and
4. the right to have the word woman mean a female.
Most posters believe the scientific fact that TWANW which is science not phobia.

So trisher and VS why do you take issue with any of that?
Do you believe it’s right to erode natal women’s right to safe spaces?
Do you believe it’s right for TW to take jobs aimed at natal women?
Do you believe that it’s right that men (TW) should take women’s places in sport because it gives them an unfair advantage and a better chance of winning?
Do you believe that women should be denied the right to be called women, or mothers?
(*Please don’t resort to saying it’s up to law to sort that out, I’m asking what you believe*.)
Feminism is acting for the interests of women. Some ‘feminists’ want to broaden the term to include the rights of TW even where that is detrimental to females.
Maybe a new transfeminist group would be more appropriate.

Molly how many times do you want me to answer the same questions?

I've already done it several times and my answers have not changed.

I've sat here patiently while my abusive childhood was held up as proof of why I should understand concepts that aren't even proven to have happened.

I've sat here patiently while I've been told I'm not a feminist.

I've sat here patiently while I have been called a "fckwit

I've sat here patiently and answered the same questions over and over as if just asking me those same questions is proof of something and my answers are actually irrelevant.

I've sat here patiently while I've been told those things haven't happened and I've imagined them and taken the screenshots to undo the damage that does to my head.

I love and care for women and I want them to feel safe and I want the same for trans people who I accept some of as women. I do not accept men masquerading is women to achieve things they would achieve in other ways without any acceptance of trans women. I do think that safeguarding is important and we must consider the feelings of everyone in any given situation.

Those who agree I am also a feminist should be standing up for me as a woman and my right to express my views, because believe me, if roles were reversed I wouldnt stand for it and I would not view those who are expressing their views in a halmful wany as acceptable for agreeing with me.

VioletSky

Why is trisher responsible for your Google search doodledog?

Please stop telling her she is not a feminist if she doesn't align with your thinking.

You aren't a spikes person for feminism and all views are valid

Sh’s not. I am interested in her own view, not a Google search result, but I’m sure that trisher can speak for herself if she has a mind to. I’m sure we are all interested to hear what she thinks a woman is, and what it means to transition.

I’m not. I’m saying that erasing women from the language and removing their safe spaces is misogynist.

I don’t claim to speak for anyone - much less transpeople. I am very wary of those who appropriate the views of groups to which they don’t belong. Even within groups there is space for different points of view, or there will be until No Devate is mandated, that is.

As I’ve said, trisher, it’s not a case of ‘can’t be bothered’, or of my being ‘willing to accept’ anything.

As I said above, there comes a point where asking someone a question that they have already answered just becomes a shutdown tactic because the answers are being disregarded anyway