Staying on topic- threads in general

Violet you yourself have just made sweeping statements about what you think gender critical feminists believe, none of which I recognise as anything to do with my beliefs. You have just said those who are gender critical dont include trans people.
I have sat here patiently whilst I have been called transphobe.
I have sat here patiently whilst I have been told I dont accept transpeople.
If you knew anything about me you would know that actual free speech is probably my highest priority, so saying I wouldnt defend your right to Express your views is nonsense.

I dont have to agree with them that's kind of the whole concept of free speech.

Sorry VS I must have missed your answers to questions I hadn’t asked. Most posters on here wait patiently for the answers to questions.
I sat here patiently asking questions.
I’ve sat here patiently reading responses that never quite answer the question.
If we disagree on what real feminism is, so be it. I’m unlikely to change my mind any more than you will change yours.
So do you believe . . . ?

Galaxy have I though?

When I read the media etc that's what I am seeing. Headlines stating that trans people are eroding women's rights and terms and the response to that.

All I can think is that those who are sexist and transphobic must love all the infighting. It must make those people very happy indeed.

VioletSky

As I said above, there comes a point where asking someone a question that they have already answered just becomes a shutdown tactic because the answers are being disregarded anyway

It hasn’t been answered. The question of ‘what is a woman’, that is.

We’ve been told that it is someone who ‘presents as’ a woman, which is meaningless unless we know what a woman is. We’ve also been told that a woman is someone who ‘stands beside’ trisher and shares her values, which is too subjective to have a meaning to anyone but trisher herself.

I’d someone transitions from one gender to another, but gender norms should be challenged, how does that transition work?

Becoming a woman is a nebulous concept without a definition of ‘woman’, and transitioning gender when gender norms are fluid is also difficult to grasp.

All I am asking for is clarification from trisher’s perspective, as she has never done so. A Google search won’t give me that.

Molly what's your response if my answers aren't the same as yours?

Can I still sit with you?

I have posted my views on what a woman is many times I've stopped doing so because when I do I get asked all sorts of weasily questions which are meant in some way to trip me up or catch me out and prove I am not the feminist I profess to be.
Its interesting that when I comment about others opinions and ideas about transpeople I am told they are not experts and they are not obsessed with the subject, but I can be cross examined to the Nth degree.

It would be possible for me to tell many on these threads that they are not feminists because their ideas have deviated from those of the first wave feminists. I think that it is incredibly sad that the original aims of the movement that the poor and children needed to be protected and cared for, that women cared more for people, and men cared most about property have been lost over the years. I think it is even more sad that a movement which spent over a hundred years in basic solidarity is now being split. There is absolutely nothing feminist about calling other women misogynistic because their ideas are different to yours.

doodledog if you won't accept ge der norms as they currently exist as an answer then what is the theoretical answer you are looking for?

Most people do identify as somewhere on the gender spectrum and there are positive reasons we have one culturally because most people want to self identify even if their sex and gender align. Most people want to be seen as the gender they identify as. It's quite different from classifying peoples capabilities based on their gender.

Yes violet you have.

There is absolutely nothing feminist about calling women transphobic because their ideas are different to yours.

Well then let's discuss that more and why I`m under the impression that one branch of feminism isn't inclusive of trans women as women

Incidently my posts about the law on women's spaces and its plain statement that if admitting a transwoman would cause substantial disruption (like women not attending) then transwomen even with a GRC can be excluded have been met with derision. But that is the law. The reason it is not being correctly applied is another question.

trisher

Incidently my posts about the law on women's spaces and its plain statement that if admitting a transwoman would cause substantial disruption (like women not attending) then transwomen even with a GRC can be excluded have been met with derision. But that is the law. The reason it is not being correctly applied is another question.

Truth

It's really difficult because I just don't have all the answers but I have no problem with the changes made so far to address the issues.

It is a possibility that with acceptance will come more solution's and eventually we are probably going to get this right.

I do believe that eventually we can get to a place where everyone feels comfortable, safe and accepted.

In order to achieve that, trans people may have to accept some changes that are difficult for them. Women may have to accept some changes that are difficult for them.

It's tough but not impossible.

You said transpeople not transwomen. I am not sure how often I can say I dont believe you can change sex so I dont believe transwomen are women. You will find that it is feminists who have stood with the transmen who have expressed regret about their transition or do those transpeople not count. As I have said repeatedly there are numerous gender critical transpeople who would think the idea that transwomen are woman wasnt true.

Also the other thing is that I accept trans women as women

but

They will also face many issues that I do not face, types of discrimination I do not face, medical issues I do not face, mental health issues that I do not face.

Also the same in reverse.

So its still not as cut and dry as that which is why acceptance probably will always have to come with a level of differentiation between us and why we will always need different types of care and yes, safe spaces.

And a spectrum is needed

1. erode natal women’s rights to safe spaces, particularly rape crisis centres, safe houses for domestic and sexual abuse where natal women have good reason to be fearful of people with a penis and where their trauma will be treated with respect and dignity before being informed that they must "first address their prejudices".
2. to jobs and the freedom within those jobs to be able to voice their opinions without being bullied out of their job by a loud and vocal minority.
3. to places e.g. sport where female against TW creates an unfair advantage for the TW and questions raised about that won't be shouted down as transphobia.
4. the right to have the word woman mean a female. So that if a woman prefers to have a relationship with a woman (and by that, she means a person with a vagina) she isn't accused of transphobia and told to address her bigotry.

Women are far more than their biological parts. We are more than the owners of a cervix, vagina, breasts, people who menstruate and a womb. To reduce "females" to those is to make us abstract and is dehumanising.

Women may have to accept some changes that are difficult for them. Why?

I don't care what any one wears, what they calls themselves or how they perceive themselves to be. But whatever they do, it shouldn't be done at the expense of any other group.

Well that's the main difference I was trying to point out in the first place Galaxy so you have lost me

Because you are only putting a focus on transwomen in feminism. But transmen are supported by feminism. I would fight for them to not have to go into a Male prison for example.

Galaxy no I'm not, that's why I said people

But you said that GC feminism doesnt include transpeople I am giving examples as to why this isnt true.

Sorry Galaxy but you have completely lost me.

Are you OK?

I need a break, I'll try reading back through later

Your post @ 15.04 is completely untrue VS and proved to be untrue. Four posts were made that mentioned your abusive child hood and all four of them were made by you.

Please stop making false allegations that have nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion some of us are trying to have.

trisher

Incidently my posts about the law on women's spaces and its plain statement that if admitting a transwoman would cause substantial disruption (like women not attending) then transwomen even with a GRC can be excluded have been met with derision. But that is the law. The reason it is not being correctly applied is another question.

Has this misunderstanding arisen because Stonewall said that transwomen must be allowed in these places whether women wanted them or not? Was the law misinterpreted?

Its interesting that when I comment about others opinions and ideas about transpeople I am told they are not experts and they are not obsessed with the subject, but I can be cross examined to the Nth degree.
That’s because you are fond of saying ‘most transpeople’, ‘all the transpeople I know’ and so on, suggesting that you have insider knowledge. This may be the case, of course, but we can’t be expected to accept your expertise as fact unless it is substantiated. You constant links to (usually anecdotal) articles, and your quoting of figures definitely suggests that you have more than a passing interest in the topic. Again, that is fine, but your voracious reading around the subject is not a reason why those of us with other interests should not be entitled to disagree with your points of view.

If your ‘weasel words’ comment was yet another dig at me, I think you’ll find that I favour plain speaking. Yes, if your ‘definition’ is as woolly as the one I quoted it will be questioned, but that’s not the same thing at all. It may be that I have missed the ‘numerous times’ that you have given a definition of ‘woman’, but I don’t recall seeing one, other than that it is someone who ‘presents as a woman and shares my (ie your) beliefs’ and even that came only after repeated requests from me and others.

Of course I t would be possible for you to categorise feminists based on your theoretical understanding of the term, but much beyond fairly basic level theory it would be pointless. People don’t fit as neatly into groups as theory would suggest. A feminist, in its accepted sense, is someone who believes in the rights of women, regardless of ‘waves’ or stages on the timeline in GCSE sociology books.