Staying on topic- threads in general

Which gives us "they". This has been rejected as plural but when you don't know the gender of a person it is used for example if someone dropped something and you couldn't tell their gender you would say "They dropped their ....."

Colloquial English and written English are very different, though. Yes, we would say 'if someone wants to make a statement they can declare their gender', as 'someone' is neither countable nor gender-specific. In other words, 'they' is a generic pronoun that is useful when the number of people attached to it is uncertain, or the gender of a singular person is not known. It is jarring when we know that we are talking about is one person whom we know to be male or female, and we wouldn't say 'the woman over there dropped their pen'.

My cousin's daughter (can we say 'daughter'?) is non-binary, and referring to them as 'they', which I do out of politeness, does not come naturally, as each time I do it I am reminded that they are non-binary. This dissonance each time they are mentioned means that their non-binary identification has become the most important thing about them. It shouldn't be, if the whole point of being gender-neutral is that gender is unimportant.

The only way I can think of to get around it would be to have a new pronoun that is singular and gender-neutral (and another gender-neutral plural one), but that is not going to be achieved by forcing people to declare their 'identification status', as that just breeds resentment.

How would you advise someone who has transitioned to female, and is known as such at work, but hasn't told her family in Jakarta who still think they have a son, as he presents in that way at home? Should she have to declare herself as 'she/her' on her emails, and have the decision to come out to her family made by a university policy, or should she conform to that policy and deny her identity by using 'he/him'?

trisher

I would have imagined that anyone believing that gender norms should be challenged would welcome requests for people to state their preferred pronoun. Doesn't this challenge the idea that you can identify gender by appearance? And isn't the abandonment of preconceptions a step on the way to a gender neutral world?

The rather convoluted word order and questions about what you imagine others would welcome is a bit confusing, but I think this is saying that in your opinion declaring pronouns is a good idea, and that you think that we shouldn't be able to identify gender by appearance as a gender-neutral world is a good thing?

How does an email signature link to appearance? If a signature says 'Dr J Smith', that gives the responder a name to which they can respond - what more do they need?

Why, in an equal world, should it matter if J is for Janet or John? It seems to me that only if someone cares that the expert in whatever it is is male or female that they would want to know, and I would seriously question their motives for that.

What's next, Professor J Smith, (she/her/Methodist/36-24-36/Labour/Brunette)?

FarNorth

Wouldn't the same pronoun for all be a better idea?
I believe the Japanese language doesn't use sex-specific pronouns unless it is essential to know which sex a person is.
That sounds much better.

(Not that Japan is a non-sexist society)

Which gives us "they". This has been rejected as plural but when you don't know the gender of a person it is used for example if someone dropped something and you couldn't tell their gender you would say "They dropped their ....."

Wouldn't the same pronoun for all be a better idea?
I believe the Japanese language doesn't use sex-specific pronouns unless it is essential to know which sex a person is.
That sounds much better.

(Not that Japan is a non-sexist society)

I would have imagined that anyone believing that gender norms should be challenged would welcome requests for people to state their preferred pronoun. Doesn't this challenge the idea that you can identify gender by appearance? And isn't the abandonment of preconceptions a step on the way to a gender neutral world?

Thanks for sharing that Chewbacca.

I agree Iam that believing "children are 'more aware' is as you say causing harm.

Thanks for the post Chewbacca. What’s to be done when academic debate can’t happen because of the noise, the threats made by a small, volatile group?
We need research into what is influencing the increase in numbers of young children referred because of gender confusion. It’s a complex issue for any parent and I fear the simplistic belief that the increase is because children are ‘more aware’ is already causing harm.

I was about to ask what these people don’t feel ‘safe’ from, Doodledog.

My ds’s role as a professor is to challenge people’s thinking, to make them look outside the box, to hear different ideas and upturn their assumptions. He’s fortunate in that he only teaches post-grads who of course are older and have seen a bit of life. He also has many overseas students, some of whom are utterly baffled by the whole trans issue.

I don't understand why 'staff and students wouldn't feel safe' if someone gave a talk. Safe from what?

This was said on a thread here about cancel culture - that young people needed to be protected. If university students need to be protected from ideas they don't like, or the opinions of others that clash with their world view, then they really shouldn't be there. It would be better if they had a year or two out until they were mature enough to attend an institution where debate and different points of view are discussed. They are not there to be spoon-fed ideas, but to listen to a range of them and decide on their own.

It makes me really cross to think that academic freedom is being crushed like this, and also that students are being denied the chance of a rounded education. It is also unacceptable for students to dictate to the university about which subjects are covered in lectures.

That is very interesting Chewbacca , thankyou for posting

Another university professor is taking legal action against her employers because she's been bullied and harassed for "being transphobic". Her name is Jo Phoenix and she's a lecturer at the Open University. This is her story:

On the December morning that Jo Phoenix, professor of criminology at the Open University, was to give a lecture at Essex University on trans rights in prisons, Twitter roared into action, with several Essex staff and students tweeting allegations that a “transphobe” would be on campus.

By 10am Phoenix was warned by a member of university staff that some students were threatening to shut down her lecture, as they said LGBT+ staff and students wouldn’t feel safe if Phoenix gave her talk. At midday the university decided to cancel it because disruption looked inevitable, and proper academic discussion unlikely.

“I was furious,” Phoenix says. “It was very clear to me that those agitating were fundamentally anti-academic because they condemned me and my research without hearing what I had to say.”

Phoenix, who is adamant she is not transphobic, had given the same talk at the University of Newfoundland in Canada a month earlier, to an audience that included trans scholars, without controversy. “They all liked it. So there is something unique about what is going on in the UK,” she says.
The talk explored tensions around placing trans women in British prisons, and argued that there are problems with applying trans rights to criminal justice.
Dr Kath Murray, a research associate in criminology at Edinburgh University, says there are many obstacles to organising gender-critical events on women’s rights. An event was cancelled at Edinburgh in December because of fears the speakers would face abuse.

Murray says one event that went ahead last year on sex-based rights required extensive security because of anticipated opposition. “There was a one-hour security briefing for speakers, seven security guards attending the event, a security sweep of the lecture theatre beforehand, and ID checks for all attendees,” she says.

In December, another event was due to take place, on schools and gender diversity. Dr Shereen Benjamin, senior lecturer in primary education at Edinburgh and the event organiser, says it was intended to show teachers both sides of the debate. “I wanted to bring together gender
critical speakers who see the increase in referral rates of children to gender identity clinics as problematic, and believe it has multiple social causes, with speakers from trans rights organisations who believe it is due to young people discovering their true identities at a younger age,” she says.

Benjamin says she was unable, however, to persuade any trans rights organisations to share the stage with gender-critical speakers, so the event was redesigned as a research seminar without teachers involved. However, when booking went live in December, the university’s staff pride network criticised it in an email to hundreds of staff, and on its blog, citing guest speakers
“with a history of transphobia”.

With at least one academic urging opponents to protest, Benjamin cancelled, fearing speakers would face abuse. “It is now so risky and frightening for people to talk critically about gender identity on campus,” she says.

Universities are no longer places for discovery and learning. They're populated by those with closed minds who want to silence everyone who has the temerity to question them. Jo has already raised £65,000 via crowd funding, to pay for her legal challenge. I've donated.

Chewbacca I think some people might say that Tofu isn't civil just by its very existence!!

We have now meandered on to Tofu At least it's civil now Madgran!

Well, the point made in the OP was that meandering is fine.

I'm vegan and I'm happy if anyone wants to eat vegan or vegetarian food now & again.
Whyever not?

Um ...so the original title of this thread was "Staying on topic ..threads in general"!!

We have now meandered on to Tofu!!!

My DS is in deep doo doo as well Madgran as he hasn't liked the taste or texture of meat since he was a child either. He's due round later this evening so I'll make sure that I point out that his "vegan lifestyle appropriation" is neither big nor clever and to get his gnashers around a pork chop quicksticks. I'll let you know how it goes....

I will be interested!!

Tofu ...for those who don't like the plain stuff (me too!) the marinated cubes made by Cauldron foods are nice ..chucked into sauces or just on their own.

I quite like tofu, and my husband is veggie, as was I for ages, so it's not that that makes me roll my eyes, it's the notion of a 'community' united in their love of soya based foodstuffs.

I agree that we seem to be moving in a very dictatorial direction as regards things that used to just be matters of opinion. It's not a good thing, IMO, and the trans arguments are just adding to the divisions that are already quite unpleasant (Brexit, climate change, vaccinations, generational conflict and so on). It's the 'with us or against us' mentality that often presages an upsurge in fascism.

Back to pronouns, I see them all the time on Zoom screens, and they seem to me utterly pointless. Everyone uses names, not pronouns, except when talking directly to someone, in which case you would say 'you'. There seems to be more than a little self-absorption going on when someone wants to dictate how they are referred to when they aren't there (and even that makes the assumption that people will want to talk about them when they're not there).

I’d no idea about the pressure to self ID by pronoun on university profs/lecturers was a Thing till I read this thread. I suppose that admission confirms I’m an out of date, third wave white feminist with no idea about oppression.
In the 70’s and 80’s, I wrote essays, reports, etc using they. I couldn’t see any problem with ‘they’ rather than s/he. So, whilst I was unaware of the nonsense facing SueDonim’s son I defend his determination not to play this ridiculous, oppressive game.
Chewbacca, thanks for your great contributions. I will hold your reference to the stars Jewish people were forced to wear to make sure their ethicity/race/faith/belief system etc was made clear to everyone.
We are in dangerous waters

Yes, it is, Calistemon. Soya upsets my stomach so I’ve only eaten it the once.

A friend tried making her own tofu and soya milk, from dried beans. She ended up with litres and litres of milk and kilos of tofu, which she tried desperately to give away to anyone who’d take it. She’s never repeated the experiment.

It makes it sound like a cult There's a lot of them around now Callistemon. And if you're not "in" their cult, you're automatically against them and therefore must be cancelled.

I got my chops gnashers round some tofu once - is that the revolting white stuff that comes in squares?

Can't say I was very keen at all so I am not joining any vegan community.
My vegan friend just lives in a normal house with her meat-eating DH and vegetarian children, not in any community.

It makes it sound like a cult.

What is 'the vegan community?' People are strange, aren't they?

Yes, that’s hilarious, isn’t? Not the right sort of vegan! ?

My DS is in deep doo doo as well Madgran as he hasn't liked the taste or texture of meat since he was a child either. He's due round later this evening so I'll make sure that I point out that his "vegan lifestyle appropriation" is neither big nor clever and to get his gnashers around a pork chop quicksticks. I'll let you know how it goes.......

Chewbacca I don't like the taste and texture of meat either and I don't eat it!! I had no idea what I was doing until you enlightened me above!!!