Men in women's changing rooms - not transwomen, ordinary men

Again??? Why do some on here have a permanent bee in their bonnets about this? It's just ridiculous. At risk of repeating myself (yet again) there have never been any 'women only' changing rooms, toilets etc. That's a fact. I know that for certain - as nobody ever checks whether we're female, do they?

I think this is just homophobia and transphobia, plain and simple - shameful!

The difference is that now men can access all areas just by saying that they are female, rather than because they have transitioned.

What has any of this to do with homophobia? I would dispute that concern about the erasure of women is transphobic, as I know for certain that I am not anything of the kind, but I can at least see the link that you are making. At the risk of repeating myself, (yet again), however, homophobia is entirely irrelevant.

Why do some on here have a permanent bee in their bonnets about this?

Perhaps for the same reason that some on here are still droning on about Brexit more than 5 years after the event. Or for the same reason that some on here bang on about Boris Johnson and his pathetic leadership. Or for the same reason that some on here go over and over their estrangement problems, still looking for answers. We're discussing the subject because it interests us and if you perceive that to be "homophobic and transphobic" - well, that's your opinion and you're as entitled to it as we are ours. Nobody dragged you by force and demanded that you open this thread hetty58. No one insisted that you had to read it and comment; you did so by choice. Just like us.

It never ceases to astound me that allegedly intelligent people are still conflating homophobia and transphobia.

I’m sure you think you are right ?? Hetty58.
I suppose you also think there have been no men only toilets either, and that women regularly go in and perch on the urinals.
It’s not homophobia and transphobia. In the past, transwomen may very well have used female changing rooms; as you say, we don’t check. But they would not have been drawing attention to the fact that they are really men or claiming that because today is their ‘I’m a woman’ day, they should be allowed in female only spaces.
These TWANW are doing more more harm to the trans they claim to be fighting for, alongside getting their kicks out of upsetting women and girls.
They are the ones who are, as you say, shameful.

Chewbacca, I stand by saying 'homophobia':

My gay friend's artist husband likes to dress as a woman sometimes. When he does, he uses the female loos and changing rooms, of course.

He's absolutely no threat to women, though. He doesn't fancy women at all - ever - unlike some women (who maybe we could be at risk of attack from - who knows? - not that it's ever worried me).

Unisex changing rooms are quite common in the US now. Been that way for a long time. Is that not the case in the UK?

Daisy79, not yet, we're very old-fashioned over here. I was shocked, at the age of 16, to find unisex loos in a Paris youth hostel - along with unisex bedrooms (and that was in the 1960's).

Dads do take their little daughters into men's loos, though, by necessity, if there's no convenient, unisex 'disabled' loo.

Hetty58

Chewbacca, I stand by saying 'homophobia':

My gay friend's artist husband likes to dress as a woman sometimes. When he does, he uses the female loos and changing rooms, of course.

He's absolutely no threat to women, though. He doesn't fancy women at all - ever - unlike some women (who maybe we could be at risk of attack from - who knows? - not that it's ever worried me).

We are talking about men claiming to be women to access female spaces. The fact that this your friend's cross-dressing husband is gay does not mean that those objecting to his being in a female loo (if they object) is homophobic.

Homophobia is fear of (or aversion to) gay people because they are gay. It has nothing to do with objecting to their using women's facilities.

You may as well say that someone who complains at a man with a beard being in a ladies' changing room is beardist, and ignore the fact that it is because he is a man in a female space that they complain. Not about his beard, not about his maleness, but because he is a man in a woman's changing room.

I am not aware of any men of my acquaintance who are a threat to women, regardless of their sexuality. I still don't want them next to me in a changing room, though, any more than I want to go into a gents' loo or locker room. And if ever I end up in jail, or in a hospital ward, I don't want them in the next bed when I am vulnerable, whether they are gay, straight or uncertain. That doesn't make me homophobic or man-phobic - it makes me aware of context and appropriateness.

I got the impression that the OP was not about trans women in changing rooms but men posing as TW?

I don't know if this has happened in the UK, but there are cases in the US.

So I don't see what the problem is with discussing the issue.

Trying to stifle debate is censorious, and not really helpful to any gender - all have a right to an opinion.

Yes, there have been cases here too, and it is this, rather than ‘genuine’ transwomen that is the issue. This, and the fact that the language is being misappropriated to exclude women, and the shouting down of anyone who objects.

It never ceases to amaze me that those posters who want to deny female rights always have a gay friend (zilch to do with TW)
or a cross-dressing friend, (zilch to do with TW)
who would never harm anyone and
who always uses female facilities unnoticed and the posters aren’t worried about it so the rest of us don’t matter. Oh and women can be dangerous too, don’t you know, (zilch to do with the case),
so everyone else is phobic.
Actually, I begin to think we should be saying that the small number of problem causing TW and people who hold views like H58 are female rights phobic- afraid that women might be entitled to something that men want.
Read Doodledog’s last paragraph to save me having to repeat it.
(Can someone tell me if you can change your name on GN? I have a déjà vu feeling.)

My gay friend's artist husband likes to dress as a woman sometimes. When he does, he uses the female loos and changing rooms, of course.

Why of course? He isn't a woman.
Why doesn't he use the men's facilities and expect the men to "be kind"?
No-one knows if he's gay, or what his motives might be, so if someone objects it isn't any '-phobia' it's objection to a male person, just like the ones in my OP.

Daisy79 when you say unisex changing rooms, what do you mean?
Is it one big room for everyone?
Individual cubicles with doors? or with curtains?
Cubicles arranged around a communal area with mirrors, as described in the OP?
Or what?

Its deeply deeply homophobic to suggest that a gay man is a woman because of the clothes he wears.

Hetty58
I think this is just homophobia and transphobia, plain and simple - shameful!

Nowhere in the DM article, or on this thread, is it implied or stated that the men in the Zara women’s changing rooms were either gay or trans.

But just carry on taking offence and virtue/signalling about how ‘woke’ you are.

Hetty58

Chewbacca, I stand by saying 'homophobia':

My gay friend's artist husband likes to dress as a woman sometimes. When he does, he uses the female loos and changing rooms, of course.

He's absolutely no threat to women, though. He doesn't fancy women at all - ever - unlike some women (who maybe we could be at risk of attack from - who knows? - not that it's ever worried me).

My brother is no threat to women. I still wouldn't want him in my bedroom when I'm getting changed.

I have mixed feelings. I would accept a transwoman who presents as a woman using the women's changing area. People who clearly present as men should use the men's.

The dilemma I see is that it's possible these were men planning to transition who were on their first shopping trip to get women's clothing. The author did mention they were trying on women's clothes after all. I'd rather be welcoming, if that were true.

Maybe the solution for stores is to have unisex spaces that don't have a flimsy curtain and are much more private and solid than they are at present? Then it doesn't really matter who is next door to us.

Cafe it's possible these were men planning to transition who were on their first shopping trip to get women's clothing
Perhaps they could have ordered clothes online and tried them on in the privacy of their own homes, as many people do.

"I'd be welcoming" Really! alone in a changing room, trying on a top, stripped down to bra, with two 6ftish men talking to each other over your head, personally I'd feel vulnerable. Although my thoughts are more with youngish girls, my granddaughter is 11, I think she's used changing rooms to try things on, possibly accompanied, but there will come a time when she does that alone, as no doubt many young girls already do. I think for them it would be even more disturbing than the journalist in question.

Ages ago I read about a spat famous cross dressing comedian had with a couple of teenage girls in a woman's loo, who probably had no idea who he was, not that should make any difference and it seemed from what I read there wasn't anyone else in there with them. When they challenged his right to be there, a shouting match ensued. I think the adult in this situation should have had enough nous to realise that these two girls found the presence of in their eyes " of a man" possibly disturbing and backed off by leaving.

janeainsworth

Cafe it's possible these were men planning to transition who were on their first shopping trip to get women's clothing
Perhaps they could have ordered clothes online and tried them on in the privacy of their own homes, as many people do.

I find that difficult enough myself, since clothes are all different cuts and sizes aren't consistent. I have years of experience with women's clothes too. I can only imagine how hard it would be for people who have no experience with women's clothes.

There are some items I only buy if I can try them on. Trousers, for example. They are really hard to buy online because the cut and shape need to be right. Shoes are another.

If you are a man and want to try on women's clothes then do, In the men's changing rooms and vice versa. Sorted!

TerriBull, obviously not if stripped down to my bra in an open area (which is not a situation I would ever be in anyway). There should be a staff member in the area keeping an eye on things for safety.

Unisex spaces may be the answer but there needs to be the trade off of proper security and solid changing rooms, not flimsy curtains.

I understand the change room dilemma well, as a mother of sons. The solution was the introduction of family change rooms, which solved that.

I have been in a change room where a woman who must have been a grandmother brought two boys around the age of 12 in. Highly inappropriate and it did make me uncomfortable. There were family rooms available, so it was completely unnecessary. I thought of saying something but decided to just get on with it. I did complain to management.

love0c

If you are a man and want to try on women's clothes then do, In the men's changing rooms and vice versa. Sorted!

I have a transgender friend who has transitioned from female to male. If we went shopping they would go to the men's and I would go to the women's'. You'd all have this person go to the women's. Funny thing is, you can't tell and you'd think they were born male to look at them, so that would cause a stir if they went to the women's.

love0c

If you are a man and want to try on women's clothes then do, In the men's changing rooms and vice versa. Sorted!

Sensible solution! The men mentioned were obviously quite happy to demonstrate that they were trying on women’s apparel so why not go and be happy to do it in mens changing rooms?