Men in women's changing rooms - not transwomen, ordinary men

Yes you've made some good points CafeAuLait.

I do agree with your last paragraph. I also have sons and certainly wouldn't have done that at age 12.

A slight digression it is a problem for mothers when their boys aged 7 and over are expected to go into the men's changing rooms on their own at swimming pools. My older one was nearly 4 years older than his brother, so when that happened they went in together with the proviso they kept an eye on each other. Same for fathers who are out alone with their daughters, as you say, a need for family changing areas, although those weren't always available.

Terribull, it is a dilemma I'm sure all parents with opposite gender children have had to deal with. I suspect this was the case with the grandmother in the situation I mentioned, though with family rooms, it shouldn't have been an issue. I didn't go back there for a while and, when I did return, the change areas had had a huge makeover so that this issue was no more.

When my sons had to go to the bathroom (at the age where they were too old for the women's but too young for me to feel comfortable with it) I followed the advice I had heard to stand outside as they go in and shout out that I was waiting for them outside, so whoever was in there knew that someone was on watch. If I felt it was taking a while, I would call in asking how it was going.

My gay friend's artist husband likes to dress as a woman sometimes. When he does, he uses the female loos and changing rooms, of course.

So this man - they must be a man because they’re a husband - doesn’t care about making women, who may be rape-survivors or have religious convictions, feel uncomfortable and embarrassed? That’s not exactly ‘womanly’ is it?

Why can’t they try on women’s clothes in the men’s dept?

Any man can self-identify as a woman. And any woman can do the opposite. And anyone can be gender 'fluid' in their identity and be whatever they want, whenever they want.

But male and female are anatomical characteristics. Thus we have male and female facilities.

I've no idea of the statistics on how many TW use female changing rooms, and certainly no data on males who pretend to be TW for malign purposes - probably very few.

But that's not the point. The point is that an anatomical female has the right to a 'safe' space, as does an anatomical male. Your gender identity does not give you more rights than these two categories. Neither does it give you less.

It's a valid topic for discussion, and jumping in - as Hetty58 did with scornful derision, telling us that we are ridiculous for having a 'bee in our bonnets', and backing up her argument with personal anecdotes (which prove nothing) is what is wrong.

I don't know what the answer is - gender identity is a personal and cultural issue, and it needs to be talked about. And dismissing women as "homophobic" for daring to raise the topic is simply a way of trying to close down the discussion.

And Hetty58, if you're reading this thread... you sneered at those giving their own anecdotes and reasoning behind their opinions, and then promptly gave one of your own, along with your opinion. Your views, like ours, are subjective.

Chewbacca, I stand by saying 'homophobia':

That's because you don't understand what homophobia is hetty and it really is about time that you learnt why describing your gay cross dressing friend a trans person is an insult to him. Seriously, you need to educate yourself on this subject before you cause offence to your friend.

Excellent post, Dickens.

I’ve a gay uncle and his husband and I definitely wouldn’t strip down in front of them and I know they don’t like women. lol I’ve never took my boys into a changing room when 11/12 etc. and I certainly do not want a man dressed as a woman claiming to a woman standing next to me while stripping off. I stand with J.K Rowling on this

Chewbacca

^Chewbacca, I stand by saying 'homophobia':^

That's because you don't understand what homophobia is hetty and it really is about time that you learnt why describing your gay cross dressing friend a trans person is an insult to him. Seriously, you need to educate yourself on this subject before you cause offence to your friend.

There is clearly a misunderstanding in Hetty58's post about the difference between gender, sex and sexuality/sexual orientation.

These are lines that the likes of Stonewall would like to blur, and the blurring leads to accusations from transwomen (ie men who 'identify' as female in gender) that lesbians (ie people of the female sex whose sexual orientation is towards other women) are homophobic (ie fearful of or having antipathy towards gay people) if they don't want to have sex with them.

An alternative view of this complicated scenario is (bear with me, as this is no less complex) that there are a number of straight men (ie male people whose sexual orientation is towards women) who get pleasure from seeing themselves as female, and who get angry when they find that this fiction is not shared by others. They have been described as 'autogynaephiliac' or AGP. They target lesbians because lesbians' sexual orientation is towards other women and being found attractive by someone who is attracted to other women fits with the AGP fantasy about being seen as female. Also, as straight men, AGPs are sexually attracted to women, and lesbians, by definition, are female. Lesbians, of course, are not attracted to men, which, with the best will in the world, is what AGPs are, so this whole house of cards is doomed to failure.

When the AGPs are rejected as female partners, threats of rape and murder often ensue. Ironically, these are accompanied by accusations of transphobia on the grounds that lesbians (or some of them) enjoy sex with dildos, so in the minds of the AGPs they should also enjoy sex with their penises. Of course women who enjoy sex with penises do not traditionally identify as lesbians, but this, along with the feelings of the lesbians concerned is irrelevant, as they are women, and consequently should all shut up and accommodate the wishes of men.

Sorry - I know that was convoluted, so congratulations if you are still reading . It goes some way, however, to explaining why so many feminists see the whole 'trans situation' as patriarchal. This, along with the removal of the very concept of what it means to be female is deeply detrimental to women, as is the distortion of social issues which is created by men identifying as female in statistical research findings.

Thanks Doodledog for your explanation. It is complex isn't it!

I think what partly puzzles people are all these acronyms which, though familiar to those in the LGBTQ community, for the rest of us need de-coding before we can even understand what they mean.

... which is all the more reason to talk about the subject.

Your post explains what the problem is and, if I understand it correctly, it boils down to patriarchy versus feminism, basically.

I have a TW friend - not an intimate friendship, but we share some interests and obsessions... baroque music (Handel in particular), ancient forests, and cooking. We barely discuss sex and gender matters - the thing that most bothers my friend is racism, as she's black and has suffered most from that phobia.

TBH I wouldn’t be bothered as long as it was cubicles. I don’t patronise any shops or anything else where there are only communal changing facilities. Ugh.

I can't remember the last time I was in a genuinely communal changing room, of the type that were commonplace in places like Biba in the 70s - basically a curtained off area in which several young women were trying on clothes and asking one another for fashion advice.

What now counts as a communal changing room is one with several cubicles (curtained or with doors) for dressing that lead onto a communal area with full length mirrors for looking at outfits and asking for advice.

Men in these areas could be subtle, and most 'genuine' transwomen probably will be - changing in private and only going into the communal area when fully dressed. The problem is that they give easy access to women in a state of undress, and a man who wants this access (as opposed to wanting to try on a dress in private) is, by definition, likely to make women uncomfortable.

As ever, the actions of TRAs who refuse to discuss the discomfort of women makes the situation of 'genuine transwomen' more difficult.

The article in the OP is not about trans people. It is about men who are quite clearly men being allowed to use the women's changing room.
It is about women finding it uncomfortable and distressing that men can be in the women's changing room.

This is connected to the 'trans agenda', however, as some people raised the alarm that allowing trans-identified men into women's changing rooms etc would result in non-trans men also being allowed there.
That idea was pooh-poohed by people like Hetty58 yet now that is what is happening.

Clearly it is not possible to exclude any man who manages to 'pass' as a woman. It is possible to exclude anyone who is obviously a man, and that's just too bad for those people.
It's not the responsibility of women to accommodate all men who wish to claim to be women.

Hetty58 you said :

He's absolutely no threat to women, though. He doesn't fancy women at all - ever - unlike some women (who maybe we could be at risk of attack from - who knows? - not that it's ever worried me).

That strikes me as a homophobic comment.
I expect you are aware of the many statistics, a lot of them compiled by the UK Government, which show that women in general are at risk from men in general.
I don't know of any statistics showing that women in general are at risk from lesbian women (actual female lesbians, that is.)
Do you know of any, or were you just throwing out a casual insult to lesbians?

FarNorth

Hetty58 you said :

He's absolutely no threat to women, though. He doesn't fancy women at all - ever - unlike some women (who maybe we could be at risk of attack from - who knows? - not that it's ever worried me).

That strikes me as a homophobic comment.
I expect you are aware of the many statistics, a lot of them compiled by the UK Government, which show that women in general are at risk from men in general.
I don't know of any statistics showing that women in general are at risk from lesbian women (actual female lesbians, that is.)
Do you know of any, or were you just throwing out a casual insult to lesbians?

A man can choose to identify as a woman. Because he is a trans woman. He can also choose the same identity because he's not and is a pervert who wants access to women's spaces. And, now I've read further - there have been such cases.

It boils down to, once again, men being given the greater power, and women being told to shut up about it. And if you don't, you'll at least be accused of trans-phobia, or worse - possibly face legal consequences.

Why are men not being asked to accommodate trans-women with male genitalia in their changing rooms and toilets? Why do women always have to oblige and satisfy their needs and wants?

Why do women always have to oblige and satisfy their needs and wants?

Because women have always moved over, shut up and compromised Dickens and it's an outrage when we complain. And some women are so keen to be seen as being so woke and socially aware that they've become apologists for the males who demand that we capitulate a little bit more.

From Fair Play For Women:

There were 134 reports of sexual assault in changing rooms over the two year period 2017 to 2018. Of these, 120 took place in gender-neutral changing rooms compared to just 14 in single
-sex changing areas. A further 46 sexual assault allegations were made about attacks in other areas such as in the pool, in a sports hall or corridors. These are not included in the percentages.

Trans rights activists claim that sex-segregated facilities would not deter someone who wanted to commit a sexual crime. If this were true you would expect incidents to be evenly distributed across single and mixed-sex changing spaces. Clearly they are not.

Full article here fairplayforwomen.com/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger/

Chewbacca

^Why do women always have to oblige and satisfy their needs and wants?^

Because women have always moved over, shut up and compromised Dickens and it's an outrage when we complain. And some women are so keen to be seen as being so woke and socially aware that they've become apologists for the males who demand that we capitulate a little bit more.

I'm happy with being a woman but, if I was a trans-man, I would use the men's changing room, if there wasn't a unisex area available.

One thing I am fed up with being told to feel unsafe and live my life around being 'safe' as a woman. We're all at risk, male and female, but I'm not going to live as a potential victim. I'd miss out on so much. I do exercise common sense, of course. I don't throw all caution to the wind.

To go slightly off topic and throw another spanner into the troubled waters (sorry about mixed metaphor!), how do people feel about the recent references to 'pregnant people'? To me this is taking things too far. Only women can be pregnant and trans men cannot bear children.

Chewbacca

^Why do women always have to oblige and satisfy their needs and wants?^

Because women have always moved over, shut up and compromised Dickens and it's an outrage when we complain. And some women are so keen to be seen as being so woke and socially aware that they've become apologists for the males who demand that we capitulate a little bit more.

Hmm. Perhaps Handmaidens would be a better description for those “*women who are so keen to be seen as being so woke and socially aware that they’ve become apologists for the males who demand that we capitulate a little bit more*.”

singingnutty

To go slightly off topic and throw another spanner into the troubled waters (sorry about mixed metaphor!), how do people feel about the recent references to 'pregnant people'? To me this is taking things too far. Only women can be pregnant and trans men cannot bear children.

Trans men can if they still have all the required parts.

CafeAuLait

singingnutty

To go slightly off topic and throw another spanner into the troubled waters (sorry about mixed metaphor!), how do people feel about the recent references to 'pregnant people'? To me this is taking things too far. Only women can be pregnant and trans men cannot bear children.

Trans men can if they still have all the required parts.

Should add, I will always choose to refer to myself as a pregnant mother or woman. I get to choose how I identify as well, right? In generic literature, I can see why they are starting to use the more generic term as there are more trans-men carrying babies. If they still have a uterus and aren't taking hormones, I believe they can.

As another thought, a friend of mine is infertile and has had a full hysterectomy. She can't have children but is entirely a woman. Childbearing, or the ability to, is not the entire sum of womanhood. It's an important part of my womanhood to me, but for those who choose not to have children to who can't have children, it doesn't diminish them as women.

CafeAuLait given that transmen are are a vanishingly small percentage of the population, and an even tinier percentage of them will overcome their dysphoria enough to become pregnant, what is the point or purpose in using 'pregnant people' as opposed to 'pregnant women'? Why use a term applicable to a tiny minority rather than that applicable and desirable to the vast majority?
Women who choose not to have children or who are physically unable to have children will not need maternity services, I can't imagine why they'd object to the term 'pregnant women'. As you say, either way they are still very much women, not just 'people'

singingnutty unfortunately your point would probably cause uproar, not discussion. Recently Rosie Duffield stated that only women have a cervix. She was cold shouldered by fellow MPs for this comment, and Keir Starmer said she was wrong. (I wonder where he is hiding his?) When society allows people to make outrageous statements that are in complete contradiction to the truth, and those who question such nonsense are ridiculed, cancelled, trolled and shouted down, we are moving towards a truly dangerous situation.

But Cafeaulait, transmen are female so of course they can get pregnant if they haven’t medically transitioned. One has to ask why they bother to say they’re men if they want to give birth apart from the attention they get.
Giving birth is only possible for human females. A transman can be a pregnant person if that’s what appeals, rather than saying “I’m a pregnant woman”. The objection is when they want women to only be allowed to use pregnant person.

I do know the difference in transpeople is that they feel their biological sex doesn't match their mental/emotional gender. Hence why we now differentiate between sex and gender.

I do wonder if it is very difficult for transmen to go ahead and have babies. It must feel very contradictory to them. But if you really want a baby and have the right parts, I suppose they are able to overcome that to attain a goal.

I haven't personally known any transmen that have chosen to have babies. The only transman I know has transitioned surgically, so that is not an option. I do know if trying on clothes he would go to a men's changing room - and would pass completely. It's a huge journey to change so I'm sure no-one does it lightly. It goes well beyond the issue of surgery.

I will always refer to myself as a pregnant woman or mother though. For me that is an important part of my identity as a woman.