Are we being deliberately panicked to stop us seeing what is happening

Mollygo there isn't one and never will be.

Whichever decision was made it would be wrong. That worries me more than anything. e.g.
Some post info saying Omicron is not dangerous, so we don’t need any precautions, others that it is dangerous and we need more precautions than those demanded at the moment.
Some criticise leaving hospitality open, others criticise precautions suggested to allow hospitality to remain open.
One suggestion is to limit your socialising to three households? If we did that just for family that’s 8 adults all working (not from home) -in schools, industry, hospitality and elsewhere, plus Uni students from different uni’s and children from primary and secondary schools.
In parts of the UK we’re allowed to do that-but how is that safer?
Does anyone have a guaranteed way to stop the virus spreading AND a way to make everyone comply?

Sorry what is the link between not being a supporter for COVID pasports and being an anti-vaxxer. I cannot find any. Perhaps you could explain Katie59 They are two totally unrelated concepts.

I too am unsure what thepurpose of the passports is. Yet I couldnt get vaccinated fast enough and was wearing mask and gloves from the first week of the first lockdown. I am being assiduous in my mask wearing.

If my maths is right, 1% of 1 million is 10,000. If the conversion rate of infection to hospitalisation is 1%. (which we don’t know for sure yet), and they are predicting infections may rise to 1 million a day, that could potentially be over a month of 10,000 hospitalisations per day. Worst case scenario, that’s what I think they are worried about.

Its not either/or. Covid Passes or Lockdown. There are lots of options.

Of course we have to have restrictions. I say this as neither a vaccine denier, a conspiracy theorist, a bigot or an idiot.

Opinions aside, I guess the alternative was some kind of lockdown which would be even more unpopular. If nothing had been done BJ would be blamed for the spread of Omicron.

Some would remove all restrictions, accept that Covid will spread, there will be more illness and death which is inevitable.
They cite that only 1% of infections result in hospitalization and much lower risk of death, much like any influenza epidemic.

Well that's fine, you are allowed your opinion and I'm allowed mine. Having different views to you does not make anybody a vaccine denier.

Interesting that you think that the "experts" agree with the government when the UK Health Security Agency weren't even consulted about whether the Passes should be brought in.

Well, most experts and most MPs interpret the evidence differently, I’m happy with that and pleased that when I go out everyone has been vaccinated.
I dont agree with most of which this government does, vaccine passes I support.

Because they don't work?

I've had all three jags, including the booster. I'll queue up for anything else they want to give me.

We've come to a pretty pass if somebody can look at the evidence, see that the thing being proposed doesn't work, and believe that it would be a distraction from actually doing something about it. And then gets told they are a vaccine denier.

Alegrias
If you’re not a vaccine denier why are you opposed to Covid Passes

I'm having this conversation on two threads now

Dr Coetzee highlighted that she had patients that were presenting with unusual symptoms and the body that does the sequencing did their thing and identified an new variant.

I'm not saying she's wrong, or trying to undermine her, I don't have the knowledge or background. But I do think there's a lot of weight being put on her testimony and even if she is correct, she is talking about a few patients, a small percentage in the grand scheme of things.

@Alegrias1. They didn’t give much detail on her background. Wasn’t she the one who first flagged up Omicron in SA ?

Pammie1

Alegrias1

She’s the South African medic asked to scrutinise the UK government's response to the new strain by Westminster's science and technology committee.

Don't think so

Don’t shoot the messenger - this is how she was described by Sky News.

Not shooting the messenger.

But she was asked to give evidence to the committee about her experience with Omicron. That's not the same as being asked to scrutinise the governments response.

Maybe they've asked her to do more now.

Spoke to someone yesterday who works at a London hospital Trust They have run out of siderooms with piped oxygen to accommodate all the covid patients and they are now using old rooms with portable cylinders.

Zoejory

But it's not just the UK who are putting restrictions in place. Most countries are reacting. Countries in Europe have mandatory vaccination.

So I'm not sure how this can be down to our government over reacting.

Thank you.

Alegrias1

^She’s the South African medic asked to scrutinise the UK government's response to the new strain by Westminster's science and technology committee.^

Don't think so

Don’t shoot the messenger - this is how she was described by Sky News.

growstuff

Sorry to be dim Pammie1, but what changes are being made?

They’re only proposals put forward in a consultation green paper at the moment, but there will be a white paper next year, detailing changes to the benefit system, based on the green paper proposals - in particular to disabled benefits. Changing from disability living allowance DLA) to personal independence payment (PIP) didn’t deliver the savings they were expecting. PIP is an extra cost benefit, not means tested and designed to meet the extra costs of living with a disability. The eligibility criteria are a lot harsher than DLA, but didn’t deliver the savings expected, mainly because the assessment system is deeply flawed and any savings were wiped out by the cost of tribunals to challenge bad decisions.

One of the changes being looked at is eventually rolling all benefits into one - Universal Credit. The green paper proposes starting the ball rolling with merging PIP - a non means tested benefit - with UC, which DOES means test. This would effectively mean that if you don’t qualify for UC, you don’t qualify for PIP, so a huge proportion of current claimants would lose all support, including the loss of Motability vehicles, meaning that there’s a knock on effect for the economy, both in terms of vehicle sales, and the loss of jobs when those disabled people who lose their vehicles can no longer travel to work.

This is just one snippet from the green paper - I originally quoted it on the thread to highlight how things are being sneaked in while we’re all distracted by Covid. Ordinarily disability charities and organisations would be all over it, but considering the devastating effect it would have if passed into law, no one seems to have even noticed. Which is worrying, not only because of the issues involved, but it makes you wonder what else is being eased in under the radar while we all look the other way.

She’s the South African medic asked to scrutinise the UK government's response to the new strain by Westminster's science and technology committee.

Don't think so

Oldnproud

Pepper59

I am not a scientist but I wondered if the reason for the panic was that they may be concerned a new variant appears from this one. I don't know for sure, it's just a thought. Mind you are South Africa's statistics accurate? It's a country I know nothing about. Perhaps someone in the know could comment. Mind you, if the hospitals become full, especially at this time of year, then that would be a worry. What I don't know is, how dangerous is this Omicrom?

I think that you raise a really important point.

If this highly infectious variant mutates into one that is equally infectious and also has a high death rate, we could really be in the deep stuff!

Apart from the basics I’m not sure how mutations work, but I don’t think mutations mutate into something else do they ? Doesn’t each mutation develop from the original virus ? I’m sure someone will correct me if this is wrong. Incidentally, there’s an online Sky News article quoting Dr Angelique Coetzee. She’s the South African medic asked to scrutinise the UK government's response to the new strain by Westminster's science and technology committee, She hasn’t seen any severe cases of Omicron in SA and concludes that as the UK is much better vaccinated than SA, although we need to be prepared, many of the measures being introduced are unnecessary and she says the UK government is overreacting, potentially causing panic with the knock on effect of the NHS being overwhelmed.

Sorry to be dim Pammie1, but what changes are being made?

their free wings, living off all our hard earned fruit bowls

I have an A level in Biology but can't remember much other than about the breeding patterns of fruit flies, which is useful I'm surprised the Daily Mail aren't furious with the fruit flies with all those children, their wings and their teeny weeny televisions

M0nica

*growstuff*. I quite agree. He is among the rightwing nuts of the nuttiest variety. But despite that people like that do at times, not often, say something i entirely agree with.

That is the joy of not being among the 'my party can do no wrong, your party are all nasty greedy pigs' fraternity. You are free to agree with someone you normally have no time for when they do say somethng sensible. And in the snippet of his speech I heard I was in agreement with Desmond Snayne. It is highly unlikely to happen again.

If it's the snippet I saw comparing Covid and road traffic deaths, he's got his facts wrong. He really did seem to have lost it.

Bea65

Pammie1

What green paper are u referring to.. scary details

@Bea65. If you go to www.gov.uk and search ‘Shaping future support: the health and disability green paper’. The consultation - such as it was - has now closed but there are various links to the green paper itself. Some of the measures are draconian and will push disabled people even further to the fringes of society. A DWP spokesman described the changes as being necessary to ensure that the people who needed the system the most could continue to be supported. That usually means that they’re proposing to means test everything to the bone with thresholds set as low as possible, and unless you’re literally on the bones of your bum, you won’t get any support at all. The Secretary of State for the DWP Therese Coffey, has already said that she doesn’t consider the department to have any duty of care towards disabled people.

Sorry for derailing the thread somewhat, but this is the kind of thing that’s being slipped in under the radar while we’re distracted by Covid issues, and when combined with giving ministers the power to overrule the judiciary, will mean that vulnerable people have little or no recourse to challenge decisions. As you said - scary.

Katie59

OH went to the barber yesterday, there were 3 young men in there furious about Vaccination passports, he didn’t realise vaccine deniers and conspiracy theorists were so bigoted.

They won’t be able to go to Nightclubs or Football match’s over Christmas. I have no sympathy for the idiots at all, this Omicron virus spreads so fast everyone in the nightclub will get infected from one person

I'm furious about vaccine passports and I'm neither a vaccine denier nor a conspiracy theorist. And I'm definitely not a bigot. Or an idiot.