Patriotism - what do you think about it ?

That song speaks of racism, we are discussing patriotism.

Sadly patriotism, nationalism and racism are not unconnected Annie

Yes, two different issues entirely.

definitely two different issues.

How can anyone stop the slide from patriotism to nationalism to racism?

Of course not all patriots become nationalists. But some do.

Of course not all nationalists descend to racism. But some do.

There is a gradation from being positive about our people to being quite negative about others.

That’s true of everything in life though varian. You name it, and some will become zealots.

Independence is normal .
Being ruled by and financially controlled by your next door neighbour isn't
.Even Mark Drakeford admitted to that this week ,in the "union" of equals England is more equal than the rest .Should we just shut up and forget that we are a nation not a region of the DIS united kingdom? Or should we gain the Independence that is our right ?

Of course the fact that we pay far more into the pot is constantly denied by WM so the man/woman in the street believe WE are the scroungers ,only with Independence will they learn the truth ,although why WM would put up with a whole country of scoungers when they wont pay for an extra bedroom for folk who need one is a mystery ,maybe someone on here will know the answer ?

boat wrote:

"Caleo I don't understand your post.

Why is patriotism morally necessary and what is it not sufficient for?"

I mean patriotism is a moral necessity as to love your native country is what you need to love the people around you in your native land.

Patriotism however is not enough because people in other lands need your love too.

EllanVannin

The patriotism in Australia is a joy to see, even their anthem, Advance Australia Fair, is belted out with pride. I love it.

I love it too EllanVannin but there is a HUGE push for it to be changes and it is not inclusive.

IMO in Australia we are becoming afraid to show our patriotism as we are deemed to be racist. Advance Australia Fair has only been our anthem since the mid 1980's but is now deemed to be inappropriate. Thing is if we keep changing things to be current we never have a culture to call our own

Caleo

boat wrote:

"Caleo I don't understand your post.

Why is patriotism morally necessary and what is it not sufficient for?"

I mean patriotism is a moral necessity as to love your native country is what you need to love the people around you in your native land.

Patriotism however is not enough because people in other lands need your love too.

As people in other lands need your love too, patriotism has nothing to do with loving people. The nationality of the person you are loving is irrelevant.

I wonder how many people can differentiate between patriotism and nationalism and accurately pinpoint where they fall on a sliding scale between the two.

It is obvious that some cannot see that their so-called patriotism is in fact veering towards nationalism.

Unfortunately it is the basis for resentment and much hatred.

Cherrytree59

Patriotism does not necessarily mean Nationalism.

I am proud and patriotic.
I am proud of the country I now live in. and I am proud of the country of my birth.

I am always perplexed as to why a person who has such a dim view of a country, chooses to stay/live there. Why not reallocate to a country that shares the ethos and values as yourself ?

As for our history
'He who is without sin .....'

We once had the largest empire in the world. At one time I was very proud to part of the nation that achieved that status.
However, the longer I live I realise how much chaos, destruction and harm that nation has done. Right now there is very little to be proud of.

maddyone

I dislike the way England is always criticised by the English. The Scots and the the Welsh are proud of themselves and their countries. The Irish are proud of their country and of being Irish. Why are the English so critical of their county?

I agree. It’s usually put down to the English feeling the need to apologise for the empire, but other countries had empires - France is just one - and don’t apparently feel the need to beat themselves up about it for ever more.

There s brilliant poem by Kit Wright on this theme:

‘Everyone hates the English
Including the English. They sneer
At each other for being so English,
So what are they doing here,
The English? It’s thick with the English.
All over the country, Why?
Anyone ever born English,
Should shut up, or f*ck off, or die.

Anyone ever born English
Should hold their extraction in scorn
And apologise all over England
For ever at all being born.
For that’s how it is, being English;
Fodder for any old scoff
That England might be a nice country
If only the English f*cked off!

I agree. It’s usually put down to the English feeling the need to apologise for the empire, but other countries had empires - France is just one - and don’t apparently feel the need to beat themselves up about it for ever more.

I agree and in fact it was not The English Empire - it was the British Empire.

Welsh, Scots as well as English were very keen imperialists as can be seen by all the places in the then colonies named after Welsh and Scottish people and places.

Yes, many wrongs were perpetrated by many nations in their expansion and land grabs, including wars between these nations over who had the "rights" to the new worlds.

It's interesting that Great Britain is the only country with a benign Commonwealth in the present day with countries which were not part of the old Empire applying to join.

Jackiest wrote;

"As people in other lands need your love too, patriotism has nothing to do with loving people. The nationality of the person you are loving is irrelevant."

True, loving your compatriots and loving foreigners are not mutually exclusive.

Thankyou Caleo. I see now where you are coming from but I have to disagree.

I am not patriotic but I don't think this makes me less than moral.

Leaving out all but recent history there are things this country has done that I am glad about. This doesn't make me proud because these things are what any civilised country should be doing.

There are other things we have done that I am ashamed of because they are not the actions of a civilised nation.

Do I love my my fellow British and people elsewhere? No.

I don't see how you can love people you don't know but I value them as fellow human beings.

I would want to make their lives better if I could and I think any civilised country should have the same aim.

Boat, interesting reply.

By 'love' I don't necessarily mean affectionate feelings. Duty to a moral code is a form of love. Working hard at a useful job is a form of love, including after you have lost all zest for the work.

"I value them as fellow human beings" I agree and this is the least we should expect at this stage of civilisation in 2021.

Now that climate change threatens all civilisation we have to pull ourselves up by our boot straps even more and love trees, animals, lowly herbs, fungi, corals, air and the whole biosphere.The whole creation.

Well said, are Sarnia and Chestnut,
what is wrong with being proud of our country?
If other countries can do it, so can we,
I am not going to apologise to anyone for being born English. I am proud of our country and I think we should fly more flags and show our pride.

I identify with being English/British. I've been physically ID'd as English in many countries overseas without even opening my mouth.

As others have said, proud? No. No more than I'm proud of being white, having brown hair, being female.

Having said that, I feel VERY English when I'm living overseas. The difference between me and the native population is great. Not to say I don't make friends.

TBH, I had enough of 'patriotisim' when living in the USA. Making 2 year olds who could barely speak, mumble along to the Pledge of Allegance', with a flag waving and a chubby hand placed vaguely in the direction of their hearts? Flags flying from houses where I knew (knew personally I mean) racist people lived. People claiming to be 'proud' to be American who denied native Americans their birthrights.

maddyone

I dislike the way England is always criticised by the English. The Scots and the the Welsh are proud of themselves and their countries. The Irish are proud of their country and of being Irish. Why are the English so critical of their county?

don't you think it is because of colonialism ?
england was the conquering country, largely, who marched into and subdued those other countries by force of arms.
hence also the affinity between seemingly disparate countries, eg ireland and the caribbean.
they have both experienced being oppressed by england historically, and more recently, looked down upon by english people, some of whom still suffer from a sense of superiority.

Welbeck you make a good point and it’s probably a good explanation of why a lot of English people don’t say how proud they are of being English. If you stick your head above the parapet and say England is great and you’re proud to be English, you risk an onslaught of attacks dragging up history in which we had no part, or reference to whichever political party is currently in power.

I'm almost frightened to admit to being patriotic these days as it is jumped on and interpretated wrongly.
If loving your country is patriotism then I am patriotic.
I have no feelings of racism whatsoever.
There is so much good in our country and I do despair at the endless criticism which abounds.
That is not to say I am blind to our faults.

welbeck

maddyone

I dislike the way England is always criticised by the English. The Scots and the the Welsh are proud of themselves and their countries. The Irish are proud of their country and of being Irish. Why are the English so critical of their county?

don't you think it is because of colonialism ?
england was the conquering country, largely, who marched into and subdued those other countries by force of arms.
hence also the affinity between seemingly disparate countries, eg ireland and the caribbean.
they have both experienced being oppressed by england historically, and more recently, looked down upon by english people, some of whom still suffer from a sense of superiority.

No, it was the British Empire not the English Empire. If we're going to be nationalistic about this, then the Welsh and in particular the Scots were enthusiastic imperialists, along with the English, all under the same flag.

So many places in the old colonies have Welsh and Scottish names.

I have always felt fairly patriotic towards both Australia and the UK (though in sport it is always Australia I have to admit!).

Please don't mention the "C" word or the "A" word, nanna8

but scotland and wales had been subsumed into england by the time the empire was thrusting around the world.
their languages were not recognised or encouraged; the only parliament was in england. ditto for ireland.
they were an underclass, who maybe tried to mitigate that by joining in subjugating other places races, to give them a step up.
to say that they were part of it because it was called the british empire is contentious.
a bit like claiming victoria was empress of india
the whole thing is very complex.
as for being proud of being british, or english.
what exactly are you proud of.
surely you can see why others may feel this is jingoistic.
like when black people feel they don't want to accept honours that mention the british empire. i can see why.
if the smiths down the road had burgled your great-grand parents' home, stolen their goods, and attacked/murdered them, then it's quite likely that you would hesitate to accept the smith medal for community action, the honour having been set up by the same smiths down the road.
the name should be changed to, order of british excellence.