Perverted man claims to be a woman - may be housed in a women's prison

Hello trisher. Yes I was referring to your remarks on intersectional feminism as well as the thread that seems to run through this discussion, almost like a competition about who is the best feminist.

Thank you Gagajo, I am aware of why and how intersectional feminism came about and for me what is important here is, as you have posted, because of how the feminist movement was "seen".

It is IMO how feminism is "seen" by some that has resulted in other derivatives; Radical, Marxist, Liberal, Difference and of course Intersectional.

For me, intersectional feminism is a nonsense. You say it "supports equality for everyone", well so does feminism.

I don't see it as being the best feminist Seasidelass I see it as differing strands of a movement which disagree on some points. In fact the other people on this thread who could be described as gender critical feminists are a fairly recent phenomena. Transwomen were accepted as women for years with no problems.
Do you not believe then that some women suffer more discrimination than others?

Yes trisher I do believe that "some women suffer more discrimination than others" but would not include transwomen as they are not women.

The reason that "transwomen were accepted as women for years with no problem" is because they were not seeking to impose their 'rights' on women and in doing so, at best make women feel vulnerable and at worse, make women feel that their very existence in terms of what it means to be a woman, is being eradicated.

Gender critical feminism I'm afraid is as big a nonsense for me as intersectional feminism. I have not seen any contributions to this discussion that have been critical of those choosing transgender but are critical, and rightly so of what is happening to women's rights.

Transwomen were accepted as women for years with no problems. This was and is still true.
Sadly some men decided that being or claiming to be a TW could be used for purposes all those other transwomen neither wanted nor needed, in particular, for challenging the rights of females and claiming them, however inappropriately, for themselves, to the detriment of not only females, but also to the detriment of those transwomen mentioned by trisher above.

Of course some women suffer more than others. For all sorts of reasons.

Decent people support the disadvantaged. Feminists support female causes. Sometimes the things intersect. Sometimes they don't. Some feminists are decent people. Some are not.

I assume that I am someone you would describe as a 'gender critical feminist? I'm just checking, as assumptions are apparently disallowed. I am not a recent phenomenon, however. It may be that some theorists (who do not have the monopoly on who is right) are now using the term to describe those who object to the eradication of women as a sex, but I've been around for a while.

If transwomen were accepted as women for years, as you say, why do you think that there have been issues recently?

Should be obvious really shouldn't it Doodledog just look at the thread title.

I wonder how much damage to the transgender community this horrible man has done.

It's obvious to me, Smileless, and to those who have posted above. Recent issues are not about transwomen (or transmen), but about attacks on women's safety and rights.

I am interested in trisher's point of view, however, but she usually ignores difficult questions, even when they relate to a subject she has raised. I see that my question about the hypothetical feminists hasn't been answered either. I'll be accused of being demanding in a minute - that's usually the defence against being asked something too difficult to answer. Time will tell.

I understand your frustration and admire your demanding persistent approach Doodledog.

Doodledog the history of the Womyns Michigan music festival graphically illustrates how transwomen were accepted and then weren't. There's an interesting podcast about it but I can't remember what it's called. Anyway transwomen were eventually banned interestingly not because of their bodies but so that butch women wouldn't be challenged. The festival continued and transwomen set up an alternative festival at the gate. But it led to a huge fall out with bands pulling out or others being black listed. The festival closed down in 2014

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Transwomen were amongst the most active in the battle for gay rights and the Stonewall riots. These women were real activists and I for one would be happy to call them sister feminists. www.jcfs.org/response/blog/history-pride-part2

Why is it the lived experience of everyone except you is dismissed trisha? Anniebach, doodle, my involvement in the strike in our area - dismissed because it seems, we aren’t in your view the ‘right’ kind of feminist. It’s patronising and offensive.
It fits neatly with your view that you’re views on trans people are more well informed, compassionate and feminist than anyone else. It isn’t a competition, it’s a debate amongst a group of older women about women’s rights.

trisher

Doodledog the history of the Womyns Michigan music festival graphically illustrates how transwomen were accepted and then weren't. There's an interesting podcast about it but I can't remember what it's called. Anyway transwomen were eventually banned interestingly not because of their bodies but so that butch women wouldn't be challenged. The festival continued and transwomen set up an alternative festival at the gate. But it led to a huge fall out with bands pulling out or others being black listed. The festival closed down in 2014

Riiight.

So the organisers of an obscure music festival that based on its title was probably less than mainstream fell out with the organisers of a similar festival in Michigan in 2014, and this is your answer to why trans issues are problematic now when they didn't used to be? I'm not sure I follow.

trisher

Transwomen were amongst the most active in the battle for gay rights and the Stonewall riots. These women were real activists and I for one would be happy to call them sister feminists. www.jcfs.org/response/blog/history-pride-part2

What has that got to do with any of the outstanding questions on this thread, though?

Chewbacca

I lost patience with the obfuscation, deviation and avoidance of answering direct questions from trisher, Gagajo and vs when I saw that Doodledog had, very patiently, once again, asked for clarification on a series of vague, convoluted and inexplicable stream of consciousness posts and received the reply "have too". And now trisher is lecturing a miner's wife on the history of the miner's strike even though the miner's wife was there and trisher wasn't. Would it be so difficult for you to acknowledge that this just might be something that Doodledog knows more about than you trisher? She was right there; living it. You weren't.

Betty Cook and many other women who have stated that this was a feminist movement were thereChewbacca as I have said Doodledog is completely entitled to her view of what happened, what she isn't entitled to do is to dismiss the views of others. As for me if I choose to listen to those women it is entirely my right, just as it is yours to take on her views. What I don't understand is why anyone would deny the evidence that women were empowered by the movement and that feminism in its basic form is about empowering women. There is considerable evidence that this was a feminist movement, it is accepted by feminist scholars as feminist and there are extensive archive papers on this. It isn't solely my opinion. You might ask why Doodledog didn't realise she was part of a feminist movement

Transwomen were amongst the most active in the battle for gay rights and the Stonewall riots.

They might have been in the beginning trisher but the trans activists have rather thrown the gay community under a bus now haven't they? Have you already forgotten about the Manchester Pride March where the gay man was assaulted by trans activists and had to be escorted out of the march by police for his own safety? His crime? His T shirt had "LGB Alliance" on it. But no "T". Therefore, under the dogma that is trans activism, he was "the wrong sort of queer". Not so inclusive then eh?

As for the hypothetical feminists they are just that hypothetical. I have no idea if they are feminist I would hope they are but as I've never met any of them been given a potted biography by someone who was living with feminists ,and didn't apparently know they were that, I feel quite entitled to say I don't know about imaginary women.

Now then Chewbacca, don’t be bringing reality into this

I love how trisher, Gagajo and I get lumped in together so often even though we have different thoughts, opinions and experiences on many levels.

It demonstrates a very "us versus them" mentality and clearly shows that we are not part of an honest discussion at all.

We have become one mass of scapegoat for each other and for any other person who accepts trans people too.

trisher and Gagajo you have my respect for not giving back in kind, not making things personal or treating others as less than the individuals they are.

Thanks VioletSky. I'm not as patient as trisher, or as analytical. I also mostly lack interest in the who-said-what, who-did-wrong-to-who on here. And also, to be honest, on the same arguments and points being rehashed repeatedly. I was interested the first few times, but now, unless it's an interesting point (or an obviously ridiculous or offensive one), I CBA really.

*IN the same arguments...

Chewbacca

^Transwomen were amongst the most active in the battle for gay rights and the Stonewall riots.^

They might have been in the beginning trisher but the trans activists have rather thrown the gay community under a bus now haven't they? Have you already forgotten about the Manchester Pride March where the gay man was assaulted by trans activists and had to be escorted out of the march by police for his own safety? His crime? His T shirt had "LGB Alliance" on it. But no "T". Therefore, under the dogma that is trans activism, he was "the wrong sort of queer". Not so inclusive then eh?

Chewbacca the tensions and disagreements amongst gay and trans peopple go back a long way. Just as gay people have in the past castigated trans people the battle has now taken another turn. It isn't new it's just different. I wish they wouldn't do it but people disagree. It was provocative to appear at a march that included trans activists wearing that t-shirt so I suppose he got the publicity he wanted.

GagaJo

Thanks VioletSky. I'm not as patient as trisher, or as analytical. I also mostly lack interest in the who-said-what, who-did-wrong-to-who on here. And also, to be honest, on the same arguments and points being rehashed repeatedly. I was interested the first few times, but now, unless it's an interesting point (or an obviously ridiculous or offensive one), I CBA really.

Me too most of the time, but I get bored when I am not at work and I've been banned from big projects like decorating until my health is fully back.

You are right. 0 progress has been made which is a shame

Now then Chewbacca, don’t be bringing reality into this

Perhaps you're right Iam64, it does tend to send them a curve ball.

VioletSky

I love how trisher, Gagajo and I get lumped in together so often even though we have different thoughts, opinions and experiences on many levels.

It demonstrates a very "us versus them" mentality and clearly shows that we are not part of an honest discussion at all.

We have become one mass of scapegoat for each other and for any other person who accepts trans people too.

trisher and Gagajo you have my respect for not giving back in kind, not making things personal or treating others as less than the individuals they are.

Thanks VioletSky. The cheerleading choruses on these threads always amuse me. I feel that in order to validate their posts some have to post approval for others at all times. It reminds me of the girls at school who always waded in to support the name-calling or back up the bully. It's just as if the gang culture still remains.

I am very interested in why feminism becomes something women don't acknowledge. The suffragettes wrote out of their first histories the most radical actions and even radical women. I always thought this was a one off. But then I think about how feminists were depicted in the 70s- hairy women who hated men, and so many refused to identify with them. Now it seems the Women against Pit Closures were not feminist. Why would women want to deny such activism? I really don't understand. But it is obviously part of a pattern