Perverted man claims to be a woman - may be housed in a women's prison

Not at all - share away - but if you say something that others don't understand you can expect to be asked for clarification.

I don't think that TWAW, for all the reasons I've already mentioned, but I don't understand how I could see them as not being valid - I just don't know how that could work, which is what I am asking. If we are, as you keep saying you want, to reach some sort of understanding, we have to understand the terms that are being used.

doodledog

It is just something I think.

Should I not share any thoughts unless directly asked?

I’m just catching up. Another long post, so sorry in advance to the short of attention span.
Let me correct you MG. Individuals who use male genitalia to commit sexual crimes are cis men. Whatever fake name they may use to describe themselves. (GagaJo)
So so-called cis men and fake trans are interchangeable now? And heterosexual individuals with male genitalia who pressure lesbians into buying into their fantasy that they too (the penis-havers) are actually gay women? Are these so-called cis men, too? Or garden-variety autogynephiliacs, and therefor ‘fake trans’? Are all ‘baddies’ ‘cis’, and only ‘goodies’ trans, in the same way that only certain ‘types’ of feminist are ‘real’?
This all gets more surreal by the day.

Then we have VS smugly asserting that she sees transwomen as ‘valid’. How do you think others see them, then? Asking this doesn’t mean that I see you as a ‘bad person’, incidentally- it’s just that I’m confused.

And trisher who would prefer many vulnerable women to be at risk from predatory males rather than have one butch woman questioned about her sex:

When the Michigan Womyns Music festival decided not to admitt them it wasn't done to discriminate against them but to stop others challenging butch women and I think this is one of the dangers we face if we begin discriminating against transwomen in every day life.

I’m struggling to follow this a bit, but how does banning transwomen from a music festival help here? Why would someone challenge a butch woman at a music festival in the first place? What are they likely to do? Sing in a deeper voice than femme ones? If not for the fact that some transwomen are ‘fake’, why would anyone feel the need to question butch women anyway, wherever they go? The TWAW stance can only have made life more difficult for the (relatively rare?) group of women who are indistinguishable from men. But let’s deal with that by putting the majority of women at risk in case one butch woman is upset?

Here’s a thought - why not just stop seeing ‘gender’ as sex-based, and let everyone dress and ‘present’ how they prefer, without needing to ‘become’ the opposite sex? Wouldn’t that get rid of all these dilemmas at a stroke? Those who don’t see sex as based on gametes but can’t or won’t say how they do define it can’t argue with that, surely? Those who see gender as a construct and sex as immutable will be pleased at not having to perform mental gymnastics to deny the evidence of their eyes and brains.

Rights of Women, Nacro, the probation service to name a few have been campaigning for improvements to prisons, to the development of alternatives to custody for years.
Prisons are dreadful places, full of damaged, damaging individuals whose personal histories are sadly familiar. It’s rude to make a blanket accusation like ‘’if you aren’t interested just ignore. It’s easy to do’.

The current govt plans to create more cells to incarcerate, rather than return to the early years investment and good alternatives to custody that work well in some other Northern European countries.

Rose West and Myra Hindley don’t compare with the individual in the OP. They both seduced and murdered children along with a male partner. Their sentences reflect that. I don’t believe the definition of rape needs altering because of female offenders like these two.

Thanks.

Germanshepherdsmum

If that’s what you meant VS you should have put the qualification in your final paragraph. As it stands, the qualification applies only to wondering whether a woman might be dangerous and if so, what gender was assigned at birth. Therefore you say all trans people are valid and deserve respect.

I'm sorry you didn't understand my meaning, I communicated it to the best of my ability and I have now elaborated. I hope that helped.

I don’t agree that the legal definition of rape is too narrow. Conspiracy or incitement to rape can carry a very long sentence indeed as has been seen with Hindley and West.

If that’s what you meant VS you should have put the qualification in your final paragraph. As it stands, the qualification applies only to wondering whether a woman might be dangerous and if so, what gender was assigned at birth. Therefore you say all trans people are valid and deserve respect.

Smileless this is why I think the definition of rape is too narrow. That's the sentence that should be applied to someone so complicit

We had a neighbour who was a prison officer and worked in a prison where Myra Hindley was incarcerated.

She was often subjected to physical assaults despite being housed in a special wing. Our neighbour said it was almost like a 'right of passage' for a new inmate to 'have a go'.

On one occasion she broke up an assault and the perpetrator proudly held aloft the handful of hair she'd quite literally ripped out of her head.

She left on maternity leave with her first child and was given a matinee jacket Myra Hindley had knitted for her!!

Many years ago while doing my degree in Social Sciences while at a week's summer school, there was a very heated debate about the sentence she received.

I was shocked at how many feminists were of the belief that her sentence had been harsh because she was a woman, rather than the fact that her crimes were unspeakable.

She used the fact that she was a woman, to lull those poor children into a feeling of safety, before handing them to the depraved Brady, as well as witnessing and recording his abuse, torture and murder of them.

FarNorth

^the safe spaces that individuals need^

Except anyone who needs female-only?

That's not what I said or what I meant.

As one example I've talked at length of the refuge I used and how that could easily have been altered to give people choices on who they shared separate, individually secured floors contining their own living spaces with.

I would exoect trans women to understand and accept the trauma of others and why that might be necessary for some women, especially in a time when so much fear and hatred of trans women is being spread

Smileless2012

Thinking more about this trisher, I think that it's as much to do with underestimating the violence some women are capable of as being unable to accept it.

Thanks Smileless2012 I think you are absolutely right.

Mollygo

Trisher. Why drag the violence of a woman against women in prison into a discussion about the harm done by ‘pretend-transwomen’?

I was actually interested in the sort of 'justice' dished out to Rose West (who could actually be compared for levels of horror with this man) and how women in prison dealt with people. It is actually almost equivalent to what happens in mens prisons (from the recent drama on TV)
RW was a category A prisoner so in a special wing. It seems she could still be got at.
I accept some wouldn't be interested. I do think the prison sytem as a whole needs attention. But if you aren't interested just ignore. It's easy to do.

the safe spaces that individuals need

Except anyone who needs female-only?

What ridiculous speculation on what might happen in prisons trisher.
The two sexes should be kept separate.
Issues of violence should be dealt with however the prison authorities see fit and should not include the added threat to females of male prisoners being present.

The answer to that was in my comment GermanShepherdMum

"unless their actions show me they aren't being honest about it"

Women do sexually abuse animals too but as I've said previously, I think some men mascarade as women for unhealthy reasons and the trans community has no responsibility here as even without their existance a man could use the same tactic to get into some women's spaces unless we show our genitals at the door

Thinking more about this trisher, I think that it's as much to do with underestimating the violence some women are capable of as being unable to accept it.

There is a case where (the court papers wrote) “… she put her penis into name and raped her etc.”
Yes, a woman prisoner was raped by a sex offender who was jailed in a women’s prison as he identified as a woman. No doubt, as he still identifies as a woman, he will be imprisoned in a different women’s prison.
It’s women’s rights that are being eroded. The rights won by the feminists in the 1970s.

Do you think this vile offender is valid and deserves respect VS?

Trans people are valid, there is a reason this is happening, its not rare, with an estimated between 200,000 and 500,000 in the UK alone.

I've seen too much proof, read too many stories, listened to too many trans people speak, watched them transition, watched them find their real authentic selves

I will treat them with respect and decency, I will use their pronouns, I won't look at any of the women around me unkindly and wonder whether they were assigned female at birth.

I will not look at any of the women around me as if they could be a criminal or dangerous to me on any level until they show me by their actions and even then, I'm not going to worry about what gender they were assigned at birth unless their actions show me they have not been honest about it.

I will continue to endorse sensible solutions that allow for the transition into acceptance by offering the safe spaces that individuals need with the option of shared spaces for those who also need them. I will continue to say that by working together that's achievable. I will continue to say that perhaps people shouldn't enter sports contest with others if they have an advantage in some way but that we could use mixed teams for many events in the same way we have mixed teams for tennis allowing for participation from everyone.

I don't really see how I could possibly do anything any differently.

Because trans people are valid, they matter, they exist, they have rights, they have needs and they deserve respect.

I would have thought that this individual would be kept in a secure wing with others of his 'type' and if it was felt there was any danger, perhaps in isolation trisher.

I think as a society we do underestimate the violence and cruelty that some women are capable of. Making it all the more shocking when the behaviour of Myra Hindley and as you've mentioned Rose West, to name just two become known.

This individual could well be subjected to violent retribution regardless of whether his incarceration is in a man's or a woman's prison. That said, his fellow male prisoners would I'm convinced by safer than the women he could be imprisoned with.

Trisher. Why drag the violence of a woman against women in prison into a discussion about the harm done by ‘pretend-transwomen’?

FarNorth Your post about women prisoners being assaulted is interesting. I wonder how you felt about Rose West. She had to be moved from a secure facility because the other inmates were threatening to attack her with a sock and billiard balls. When she was moved to Low Newton she was beaten up.
I do wonder if there would be women prisoners who would do the same to this man. I'm not suggesting it's a good idea and of course there would be vulnerable women but perhaps some of them could deal with him. Do we sometimes underestimate women and the level of violence they are capable of?
Before anyone jumps in I don't want him in a womens prison. I'm simply speculating on what might happen based on the violence that does happen.

I don't understand what you mean when you say your feminism is different to others Violetsky, or why you've said threads like this are toxic.

I agree with Galaxy, people are expressing different points of view, sometimes rather passionately which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but toxic!.

I don't see that at all bearing in mind that toxic refers to something very harmful or unpleasant in a pervasive or insidious way. I would say that toxic is an appropriate description of the individual the OP refers too.

FarNorth I’d be really interested to know the answer to your question too.