Perverted man claims to be a woman - may be housed in a women's prison

I know what I said, and stand by it.

Feminists who support the cause of men are not necessarily doing so out of feminism. Feminists were part of the support groups in the strike, but support was not based on feminism, but on support for the striking miners Who Were Men.

Similarly, those who knit for peace, or for the homeless may be feminists too, but their knitting is not feminist when they are doing it to keep homeless men warm. Supporting a charity that gives san-pro to female rough sleepers might be feminist, as might knitting baby clothes for the children of women in refuges. Feminism is about supporting women. Feminists may support men, but when they do so they are not doing so out of feminism. See also comments about miners' support passim.

It's like plaiting fog.

anniebach, I don't understand your post.

What you actually said
Feminists may also support the cause of groups of men, but that wouldn't be feminism. Support for the miners in the 80s was largely support for men, but plenty of feminists were part of the support groups. Similarly, those who volunteer for things like helping with adult literacy or who knit hats for the homeless may well be feminist, but what they are doing is not feminism

Perhaps you were there and perhaps your experiences are as you state but you can't just dismiss a whole movement because others who were there recognised it as a feminist movement and as being feminist. They are just as entitled to their views.

Good grief , feminism and the miners strike.

I have just been reading the comparison between men who go to prostitutes and those who dont, much higher rates of perpetrating domestic violence, much more likely to commit rape and murder. I need to look more closely at that info but it was quite terrifying.

trisher

There areso many things I could say about your post Doodledog but just to remind you you denied that women active in the miner's srike had anything to do with feminism and you likened them to women knitting hats for the homeless. You may feel you were part of the movement but that view conflicts with many others wo were involved Listen to Betty Cook www.bl.uk/collection-items/betty-cook-barnsley-women-against-pit-closures
As I said my interest is that women should always be recognised and never dismissed for their role in historic events.

Oh FFS.

I have denied no such thing, and did NOT say they were anything to do with knitting for the homeless. You seem incapable of following an argument.

I was saying, for the last time, that contrary to the notion that feminism incorporates any and all forms of support for the disadvantaged, be they male, female to confused, in fact, people act in accordance with their beliefs about all manner of things. Feminism may be among them - we could have a pretty Venn Diagram to show the overlaps - but being feminist is about supporting women. A feminist may (or may not) also be socialist, pacifist, religious or many other things, and may be supportive of causes because of that.

Please stop patronising me with links to others' perspectives on the pit closures. I have lived experience to draw on and am happy with my own perspective. As other readers will realise, I mentioned the miners simply as an example of what I have outlined above.

Galaxy I think expressing a view is OK but I would always state that it was based entirely on the review and not on the whole concept which might be different.
I think prostitution isan interesting subject and something it is difficult to assess properly because of the links it has with criminality. I remember a TV programme called "A very Yorkshire brothel" the business was run by a mother and daughter. I often wonder if it thrived or if criminal activities moved into it.

There areso many things I could say about your post Doodledog but just to remind you you denied that women active in the miner's srike had anything to do with feminism and you likened them to women knitting hats for the homeless. You may feel you were part of the movement but that view conflicts with many others wo were involved Listen to Betty Cook www.bl.uk/collection-items/betty-cook-barnsley-women-against-pit-closures
As I said my interest is that women should always be recognised and never dismissed for their role in historic events.

My work mostly involved working with families, this sometimes involved domestic violence, often poverty, often child safeguarding issues. I have never worked with anyone who was involved in prostitution. I spent ten years in various voluntary positions in a sexual health charity. In the last few years I have become interested in the subject and tried to read some differing perspectives in the subject. Trisher is right I havent read that book but I have read some of her views elsewhere and various analysis of that perspective. But even if I hadnt and had only heard of her from the article it would be ok for me to express a view on the article because otherwise there is no point posting the article.

Oh, and I wasn't saying that the role of the wives was 'supporting the men'. I was talking about the many, many, other people who were supportive - not from a feminist perspective, although many may have also been feminist, but because they were socialist, or Christian, or unionist, or for all sorts of other reasons.

trisher, your comments are getting ever more desperate in your attempt to sound clever.

I have no idea what Galaxy's career is or was, but wouldn't dream of jumping to the conclusion that she doesn't know what she is talking about, or that she is basing her comments on one article. It is clear from her posts that she speaks from an informed perspective.

I am not offended at your patronising me about the miners' wives - more amused, really. I am used to swerving diversions and rolling my eyes at assumptions on here, but this one takes the biscuit.

In 1984 I was a student. I was also newly married to a trainee mining engineer - I still am, although he finished his training a long time ago now. He worked for the NCB, and like me was a committed unionist even then. His union was affiliated to the NUM, and he was on strike for the full year. We had a new mortgage and absolutely no money other than a tiny student grant.

I don't want to give any more identifying information, but believe me, I know all about the miners' wives - I was one.

I know her work Trisher. It took a moment to join the dots as to who it was. I actually agree with her on some of her perspectives on the me too movement for example, I think she might be upset in that I think parts of what she is saying are similar to Greers view on that subject. I should not be so lazy in thread starting I think a thread on feminist perspectives on prostitution would be interesting.

Galaxy

I dont agree with something because a woman wrote it Trisher that would be weird. I know who she is she was part of the whole University of Sussex farce.

You don't have to agree with it Galaxy but isn't dismissing a book you haven't read as "incoherent" simply on the basis of a review a bit much? Is the fact that you have issues with the author a good enough reason?

I have a different perspective on sex work to her. There are numerous different perspectives on sex work from a feminist viewpoint. There are women who have spent their entire life campaigning in the field who hold a totally different point of view. There are people who I dont agree with on the subject who at least have a coherent position. I dont think she does or certainly doesnt in that article. Are you know saying that we can only hold a view on something if we are experts in the field. That would mean you cant say that it's a good article unless you are an expert in sex work.

I dont agree with something because a woman wrote it Trisher that would be weird. I know who she is she was part of the whole University of Sussex farce.

Galaxy

Well no because its incoherent, the analysis of sex work alone is just so muddled. I dont even know where to start.

That's interesting so apparently you know more about and understand sex work better than someone who specialises in gender studies and is a Professor of Sociology at Newcastle Uni. It's great how women support other women and acknowledge their success and expertise isn't it?

Doodledog I'm sorry you took offense at my post. Although the women involved in the miners' strikes undoubtedly supported the men I feel it is dismissing them and the enormous effect the movement had on them to describe them as just "supporting the men". This is what happens to women in history their roles their influences and the changes they made are dismissed or just overlooked. Sorry but I can't let that go.

VioletSky

Mollygo I'm not responsible for others interpretation or understanding.

I've given my personal answers. Sometimes I haven't git a clue how to resolve issues fairly but I do place priority on people feeling safe and things being fair so there is that

VS I’m glad you place priority on people being safe- as will be all the vulnerable women who are safe without the presence of TW in their safe spaces.
I’m glad you place priority on things being fair, even if that means TW can’t take jobs specified for females or compete unfairly against females because they would not succeed as males.
I’m going to throw in a trisher type of diversion here, to help you understand. When TW agree to take part in ‘fair’ running or wrestling contests between TW and lions despite the advantages that having been brought up as wild lions gives the animals, competitions between females and TW might be considered fair.

Flippin eck trisha, talk about continuing to trishsplain to we poor mortals who don’t know things like you do. The miners strike will be part of the personal history of all the left leaning women posting on this thread. Yes I’m jumping to a conclusion and I’m ready to be told I’m wrong.
We were out rattling collecting buckets throughout the strike. The birth of one of my children was announced at one fund raiser to explain my absence.
The miners wives movement was impressive and heart breaking. Scargill and Thatcher destroyed communities.

Doodledog I had a break from GN over the Christmas period ( just happened through lack of time, not making a statement lol) but I see you're still having to turn somersaults in order to explain perfectly obvious statements! Plus ça change..........

Mollygo I'm not responsible for others interpretation or understanding.

I've given my personal answers. Sometimes I haven't git a clue how to resolve issues fairly but I do place priority on people feeling safe and things being fair so there is that

trisher

Doodledog Support for the miners in the 80s was largely support for men, but plenty of feminists were part of the support group
Really??? Groups for miners wives were plentiful and huge more women became political activists in those communities than ever before (or since). Women against pit closures was a huge movement. theconversation.com/we-are-women-we-are-strong-celebrating-the-unsung-heroines-of-the-miners-strike-92448

I am very well aware of that.

As I said, the support was largely for the men, regardless of the fact that it came from both men and women. I'm not suggesting that women (as wives and mothers) were not affected by the closures, but women didn't work down the mines and it was not their jobs at risk.

I'm sure you understand the point I was making (or not?) though, so looking for what you see as inaccuracies in the examples just diverts the conversation from it.

Do you agree that people can support causes out of motives other than feminism, even if they are feminists? That was what I was getting at.

VioletSky

Have too

ViolentSky only to your satisfaction. Then there’s the truth.

sazz1

I don't care if they are trans male female or non binary. This disgusting person or excuse for a human being has violated an animal. That is absolute cruelty purely for their own gratification.
They should get 10 years in prison followed by chemical castration imo. Also a lifetime ban on keeping or working with animals. Disgusting.

Couldn't agree more.

Doodledog Support for the miners in the 80s was largely support for men, but plenty of feminists were part of the support group
Really??? Groups for miners wives were plentiful and huge more women became political activists in those communities than ever before (or since). Women against pit closures was a huge movement. theconversation.com/we-are-women-we-are-strong-celebrating-the-unsung-heroines-of-the-miners-strike-92448

Well no because its incoherent, the analysis of sex work alone is just so muddled. I dont even know where to start.