Perverted man claims to be a woman - may be housed in a women's prison

I agree with every word of your very detailed and well articulated post at 01.55 Doodledog and it's a pity that vs has felt unable to take on board what is trying to be explained to her before again leaving in a strop. Like FarNorth I'm stunned that presenting male prisoners sexual violence against female prisoners is somehow acceptable because smuggled objects like phones and drugs to penetration without a penis for personal gratification, power, humiliation
are used by women anyway. I have no doubt that this may well be the case, but why would anyone, who cared one iota about women, want to add men with penises to that environment? In the link that I provided @ 01.05 women prisoners talk very frankly about what it's like to share a prison cell, shower facilities and work spaces with a man who says he's a woman and the penalties and punishments that women prisoners face for questioning whether they should be there. They have no rights at all.

Elegran it's intersectional feminism because it is a movement of women who recognise that some women suffer more discrimination than others and that some women have more privilege. It works to develop and grow levels of equality and does so by trying to encourage feminist ways of dealing with things. It's one of the reasons I return time and time again to these threads, because it is feminist to discuss things. It's feminst because it believes that masculine ways of dealing with problems by for instance castigating and dismissing transpeople only creates more inequality and that the patriachy thrives on inequality. Women have been fighting for equality in a masculine world for years and still can't break through the glass ceiling. So chuck out the glass ceiling, stop measuring achievement in masculine terms and begin building a feminist world with different values.
I could argue that a philosophy which only seeks to make women the same as men isn't feminist, but I'm sure you genuinely believe it is

I believe that not all TW commit crimes using male genitalia , but that where they do, they should be incarcerated in male prisons and GagaJo stated that, way back on this thread.

Maybe VS and t might like to consider that as a starting point for agreeing about at least one aspect of women’s concerns, unless they think GJ is wrong too.

trisher

Elegran

I wouldn't define feminism as supporting any woman who is in a position of authority, however discriminatory her policies were, or allowing a man to be discriminated against, but as supporting the removal of the lingering barriers to women in general reaching those positions, and encouraging policies that prepare girls for taking on those responsibilities instead of settling for the lesser roles in the background.

But those barriers are not equal or the same for all women Elegran or indeed for all people. Intersectional feminism recognises that there are different levels of discrimination for different people and supports all people who are discriminated against, because some face more difficulties than others..

Intersectional feminism should really call itself peopleism, then.

I was defining feminism as it applied to the instance you described not as it applied universally and across other instances.

I suspect that, whichever institution the Defendant ends up in, they will not have an easy time from the other inmates, the British being a nation of animal lovers and all that!

The various discussions on trans issues are interesting, as with any other to[ic, posters bring different political, social belief systems, life experience and academic knowledge.
Where discussions on the hard won rights of women and the loyd shouting demands of a small but vociferous group of trans women take place, the consensus is that women are expected to give way. That’s been a common theme in our lives, we resist. Three posters take the moral high ground. Accuse the majority of being over privileged and not real feminists.
Attempts by many to suggest that the issue of trans children, trans sex/violent offenders must include the personality, the m.h., the psychological, life experience are dismissed. We are told we are Terfs
Anyone who has had even a passing involvement with the criminal justice system, or our mental health / social services is likely to be aware of Autogynophillia. Yes, some men find it sexually exciting to imagine or dressing, passing as women. The majority don’t profess to sex offending but some do. Many cause distress to wives partners and children. Why is it so difficult for some to accept trans people are like the rest of us, they aren’t all ‘nice’ to use a word cropping up here regularly.

Chewbacca you do understand that sexual assault exists between women in prisons.

Why would you want to add sexual assault by men into that VS?
Or even threatening behaviour from men?
Or general perception of threat from the fact of men being present, locked in with women?

Galaxy

I wonder what impact the Forstater ruling would have on that situation Chewbacca. The cases I have heard where that happened were pre the forstater case.

Unfortunately, Maya Forstater said that she would use a person's preferred pronouns out of politeness.
Of course, she was talking about in workplace and other normal situations not in a court while testifying about an attack.

I'm afraid I don't understand your post, except that yet again I have taken time to try to explain my position on this issue clearly and carefully, and yet again you refuse to read it and strop off. Last time you just said 'I didn't get to the end of that' and left. I accept that you may not agree, but to refuse to read to the end of the post is just rude.

I don't see how a subject as complex as this can be discussed in soundbites or tabloid headlines. If you genuinely want to find common ground, you need at least to have the courtesy to listen to those with whom you disagree.

Doodledog please go back through this thread and count how many times it has been said that "trans women are not women" in various ways.

Other than that I got to the first assertion you made of something I have never said and I have decided to call it a day because no one likes that, FarNorth said earlier today that they do not like that too. Iwork very hard not to do that because I don't like it and yet it continues on this thread and it makes honest discussion impossible. I may not come back for a whileor at all as it is boring.

Good night

The quote you quoted mentioned both sides Chewbacca it's right there, 4 times now from my first comment so I'm really not understanding why you are still pushing your own interpretation.

It was right there because it is a general comment, not aimed at any one here. There are no trans women here, there is no one saying that lesbians should be attracted to trans women or any of the other silly ideas trans people have apparently had going by the comments in this thread. Which I don't disbelieve by the way but haven't seen happen myself and honestly haven't looked because I'd just get into an argument with them about peoples rights when choosing their own partners.

I think maybe it's just too past bedtime and some rest is needed.

VS. I (and others) keep saying that we have nothing against men living as transwomen, and that we do see transpeople as valid. You, trisher and GagaJo keep saying that we don't. I see your collective refusal to accept that we mean what we say as gaslighting and disrespectful, but there is nothing that I or others on this thread can do to change that.

Nobody, as far as I can see (but people will correct me if I'm wrong) has said that they don't want people to have a right to live their best lives so far as they don't hurt others. Where you and we seem to differ is that you appear to believe that women should suppress their feelings about single-sex spaces and the other things that are often repeated on here, and just allow men to do as they wish, so long as they say they are women. We feel differently.

Of course we all understand privilege. I think your idea that 'many people' don't comes from a similar discussion about race, which points out that many white people don't understand how it feels to be sidelined or disadvantaged (not necessarily materially) simply because they are white, and have therefore not lived as black people. That is not applicable to women as a sex. We may have different material and/or status advantages from one another, but we share the position of being women in a patriarchal society. We do understand, as we have lived as women.

I have yet to hear a supporter of trans rights explain what rights trans people are denied, what disadvantage they suffer, how they are 'the most victimised group in society' etc. All we hear is that they are, never in what ways, or specifics about the rights that have supposedly been denied. Therefore it is difficult to understand what is meant by their lacking privilege.

As a generalisation, transwomen were socialised as male. They have all the advantages that go with that. Many keep their male appearance, which adds to that advantage. Transmen have chosen to join the gender that is privileged. The law prevents sex discrimination and gender is protected by hate crime legislation, from which women as a sex are not protected. Where is the discrimination?

You say that you keep looking for solutions which we reject. I accept that you think you do this, but don't you think that if things were that simple there wouldn't be a problem? This is not a case of persuading children to play nicely. There are genuine conflicts here - if men who want to play sport as female get their way, female competitors are going to lose out. If men who want to enter female spaces get their way, women who want or need those spaces lose out, etc. Sometimes there just isn't a compromise, however much it would be great if one could be found.

Whataboutery is never helpful, and explaining that women also assault one another is an insult to our intelligence. We Know That. The point is that in the vast majority of cases a male-bodied prisoner (or a male bodied anyone) with male hormones and a proclivity for sex offences and violence is a danger to female-bodied prisoners with female hormones. It's as simple as that.

The refusal to accept that not all transwomen are like Hayley in Coronation Street, and the insistence that anyone who says so is transphobic or unsympathetic to the Hayleys is very unhelpful. The No Debate and TWAW mantras are extremely damaging to many transpeople, to lesbians and to women in general.

Yes, people get frustrated on threads like this, and at times get a bit snappy. We say the same things over and over, but get told we don't know our own minds, and are gaslighted by being told what we really think.

So not misinterpreted at all then. Ok.

Oh so that bit mad you cross even though it is true and you didn't read the rest properly... It happens

Chewbacca how can you quote what I actually said and still misinterpret it?

Because THIS is what you said: Al (on) the whole it is some women against trans women and looking for reasons to justify that You never mentioned both sides. You said some women.

Chewbacca how can you quote what I actually said and still misinterpret it?

Both sides meaning there are trans people and allies whose views are also discordantand unhelpful

Chewbacca you do understand that sexual assault exists between women in prisons. From looking for smuggled objects like phones and drugs to penetration without a penis for personal gratification, power, humiliation. It's just not classified as rape without a penis but no less painful or traumatic for the victim.

I don't know if anyone is interested in the exact same crimes happening in men's prisons only inclusive of the word rape.

Prisons need a complete overhaul really

Al the whole it is some women against trans women and looking for reasons to justify that, we achieve nothing but allowing the most discordant voices on either side a platform to spread negativity

So, yet again, you're placing the blame for "discordant voices" at the feet of women? Could that be because men aren't being asked to relinquish anything at all? Not being asked to give up their safe spaces are they? Would a male prisoner mind if he had to share a cell with a woman? A man doesn't need to worry too much if he's competing against a female swimmer or cyclist does he; he's bigger, stronger and faster than she's likely to be anyway. Please vs tell me what men are contributing to be on board with finding those solutions. Anything? Anything at all?

This article explains how females in prison have to cope with trans cell mates. And the penalties for not complying.

lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/10/if-we-dont-we-get-a-punishment-no-freedom-of-speech-for-women-in-prison-says-dr-kate-coleman-director-of-keep-prisons-single-sex/

I mean in terms of being forced to say he. Obviously no impact on the prison situation. But the ruling indicated gender critical beliefs were a reasonable belief to hold.

I've already said I understand why people feel the way they feel, I've said so across multiple threads. I just do think trans people are valid. Many people do not and have clearly said so.

I don't think I could explain privilege as well as some of the many articles on it, they will mostly address the most glaring examples but when you understand it you can see the possibilities. Many are unaware of it.

I have also said across multiple threads that I don't think the majority of trans women are taking anything at all from me. They just want to live and be happy in their own skins, something I can truly empathise with and understand.

I and others have offered up solutions to help vulnerable women feel safe whilst preventing trans people feeling or being excluded. They just are not accepted.

My ideal solution is for women to feel safe while ensuring that trans people keep their rights but that's not achievable until everyone is on board with finding those solutions.

It should be us versus the problem not us versus each other.

Al the whole it is some women against trans women and looking for reasons to justify that, we achieve nothing but allowing the most discordant voices on either side a platform to spread negativity

I wonder what impact the Forstater ruling would have on that situation Chewbacca. The cases I have heard where that happened were pre the forstater case.

Can you imagine the misery and humiliation of being in court and facing your attacker and being forced, by law, to address him as "she"? And know that when he's sentenced to prison, he'll be put in a cell with other vulnerable women where he'll be able to do the same to them?

But I do wonder if some men are mascarading as women, not because they feel they are genuinely in the wrong body but because of a woman fetish of some kind. Or to get access to women in some way.

Yes,googleAutogynephilia.

I wish there were a way to determine that because it would go a long way towards helping women feel safe.
It would, if not for those who would still persist in the idea that women wanting to feel safe from them are transphobic or the wrong sort of feminist. Women have been saying for years that this underpins the situation that results in transmen wanting to have sex with lesbians and being violently offended when they are refused. Refusal blows apart their misapprehension that they are women, and they react badly. As heterosexual men, they don't want to have sex with other men, but to have sex with women, which is why they choose lesbians, who they believe will mistake them for women, or see them as the next best thing. The fact that many lesbians don't want to be penetrated by a penis is irrelevant to them, as women's equality doesn't matter.

But you've still *not explained what you mean by "privilege" *vs. Who is privileged? How are they privileged? What do they have that the "unprivileged" do not? What would give them "more equality" and how would you achieve that? Do you think that men should be giving up more of their privileges to accommodate trans? If so, what? Do you agree that women have been asked to give up too much to accommodate trans? Or not enough? Do you understand why they're angry?