Perverted man claims to be a woman - may be housed in a women's prison

No I know you didnt say it, but it has been said in the thread and that's part of the utter incoherence for me. I would also wonder about the legality of it. As I have said rose west etc were/are women and as such belong in womens prisons. If TWAW then a transwomen who commits a violent sexual assault should also be in a womans prison. Why wouldnt they be? We cant operate prisons in that way. We segregate prisons by sex, not by how uncomfortable we are with the crime.

Sorry Chewbacca but I would only be repeating what I already said in defdirent words and I don't think it would change anything

There is no way to achieve equality or freedom when there are too many people saying, "but I want more equality than this demographic".

But that's not what women are saying is it? Women are saying that they already have less than men; it has never been a level playing field, men have always had far more rights and "privileges" than women anywhere in the world, at any time. So, unsurprisingly, we're not too impressed that we're now being told to dilute what few rights and "privileges" we've gained so that a few men can pretend to be women. And, just like the Emperor's new clothes, we're asked to pretend that we accept that they really are women and accept them as one of the gals! I will not collude with their self delusion.

Galaxy

Thank you for putting that sort of nicely but I haven't said that transwomen who rape aren't women magically or otherwise.

Side note We have already had the discussion that I think the rape definition should be widened so no point repeating that.

But I do wonder if some men are mascarading as women, not because they feel they are genuinely in the wrong body but because of a woman fetish of some kind. Or to get access to women in some way.

I wish there were a way to determine that because it would go a long way towards helping women feel safe

Agreed, Galaxy. And the need to disassociate transpeople from anything negative is indicative of an extremely narrow, not to say naive, view of human nature. Either they are human (in which case capable of all manner of bad behaviour, just like anyone), or they are somehow not human. A difficult perspective, which is difficult to reconcile with the idea that they are 'the most persecuted group in society', which is trotted out by so many of their 'allies'.

They cant be women. I am really sorry violet as I know some find this hurtful but it's true. It is as someone said magical thinking. Myra hindley, rose west and all the rest remain women despite the horrific crimes they have committed. But apparently transwomen who commit rape suddenly arent women. It is not the crime that makes them not women. It is their sex.

VioletSky

There is no way to achieve equality or freedom when there are too many people saying, "but I want more equality than this demographic".

Many suggestions have been made on how to achieve this but it always comes back to "I will give nothing of mine" which is privilege and not freedom.

Many do not understand what privilege is, it is as simple as not being in a demographic that is discriminated against which impacts lives on every level, even prison.

I am not saying it to make waves, it just is and it is something that works on multiple levels as women should understand. Not all women are equal due to privilege and yet, women would argue against it. Often those with the most sadly.

So what about men who are saying that they want freedom to enter female spaces against the wishes of the women in there? Where is the women's freedom in the face of that?

What about the freedom of women to compete fairly in sport, and to have statistics about women using that to mean people born female?

Or the freedom of lesbians to have sex with other women, which is the basis of their sexuality?

How do those freedoms stack up against the men (and their acolytes) who want to deny them, and to put their own wishes above those of women? Do those men give anything of theirs? Do they fudge! They insist on women shutting up and putting up.

Who are the 'many' who don't understand what privilege is? Is it men, who for centuries had far more rights than women, or the women who fought for rights of their own? Or is it the few men who want the right to identify as female, regardless of how many women feel about having their spaces invaded and their rights to sex-specific teams, stats and spaces protected, as well as their rights to bodily autonomy?

Not all women are equal, true. Unfairness is endemic in a class-based society. That is a separate discussion, however, and the most radical communism would not and could not alter the fact that sex is biology. I'm not saying that to make waves - it's just the way it is (by which I mean it is actually the way it is, not how I perceive it to be), yet there are women who would argue against it. Usually those with least to lose, sadly.

Prisoners, rape victims, sportswomen, lesbians, confused teenagers and others are ignored by these women (or are seen as irrelevant, I'm never sure).

I think you are confusing freedom with privilege Chewbacca

I don't think you know what "privilege and freedom" actually means vs. Privilege is what men have enjoyed since the dawn of time; so much privilege they don't even know they have it.
Women all across the world are still fighting for their human rights in a sexist, misogynistic, patriarchal world and seeing them rolled back more and more: so that men can be what they want to be, no matter what it takes away from women. Some of those men want what we have: our safe spaces, sports, crisis centres, prison cells, a right to be treated intimately by a woman; even our very identity as a woman. They are demanding that they be accepted into those areas and be referred to as a woman, even when they've violated, raped and abused us and, even then, their crimes are registered as having been committed by "a woman". And if we complain and protest, we're called transphobic, terfs and, as you have said "privileged" and we should just "be kind". And you see that as our privilege??? Wow.

Galaxy I don't expect anyone to share a prison with any rapist.

I'm sure there are sensible solutions to that that don't involve trans women being told over and over they cannot be a woman using a rapist as justification

'I will give nothing of mine' I wont as a woman share a prison with a Male rapist. Yep reeks of privilege. Bloody right they should give nothing of theirs to men.

PP and I are on the same page with this one :

"'Trans criminals are not women': Home Secretary Priti Patel orders 'woke' police forces to stop recording offences as female crime statistics"

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10124021/Priti-Patel-orders-woke-police-stop-recording-offences-trans-women-female-crime-stats.html

So if a disabled man was suffering discrimination you wouldn't support him because he's a man?

Or if a woman politician was ruling a country you would support her because she was a woman even if her policies discriminated against others?

Who, on here, has said or implied any of that?

I would support a man, or a woman, who is experiencing discrimination because of being disabled.

I do not support Priti Patel being in power because I don't agree with her policies but if she was being prevented from holding a certain role, because of being female, I would support her fighting that discrimination.

Calistermon

"could you elaborate"

"can you explain"

Much simpler, quicker, less antagonistic and less likely to influence interpretation by others reading as well as less likely to be off putting if you truly want others to join the discussion and share their thoughts

Thanks VioletSky.

There is no way to achieve equality or freedom when there are too many people saying, "but I want more equality than this demographic".

Many suggestions have been made on how to achieve this but it always comes back to "I will give nothing of mine" which is privilege and not freedom.

Many do not understand what privilege is, it is as simple as not being in a demographic that is discriminated against which impacts lives on every level, even prison.

I am not saying it to make waves, it just is and it is something that works on multiple levels as women should understand. Not all women are equal due to privilege and yet, women would argue against it. Often those with the most sadly.

VioletSky

People making assumptions about what I'm saying is my new favourite form of comedy

I asked politely.

If you don't wish to elucidate then fair enough.

It really must be freudian that I always spell women wrong on these threads

Perhaps you need to explain in what way women are privileged then. This is a thread about women in prisons. They tend not to experience a great deal of privilege. Or do you mean the wonen on this thread?

Yes all those privileged women in prisons.

People making assumptions about what I'm saying is my new favourite form of comedy

I don't understand, Violetsky

Are you saying that women should lose their hard-won rights and freedoms on the altar of political correctness, where no-one is allowed to question the motives of those who claim, wrongly, to be transgender to further their own aims?

One giant step backwards for womankind.

I think you are confusing freedom with privilege Chewbacca

Nobody's free until everybody's free

I'm not giving up my hard fought for freedoms without a fight just because a man needs my freedoms to enable his. I will not collude in his self delusion at the cost of women's freedoms and rights.

So if a disabled man was suffering discrimination because he was a man you wouldn’t support him
Where did I say that?
Quote from my post, I can support the needs of those with disabilities
Where does “those with disabilities” exclude men? I feel like some famous GN posters because, like them, “I have some friends” and family, both male and female who are disabled, wheelchair bound, deaf or with mental health problems to whom I offer support.
I was going to continue about your second post, but I noticed Doodledog has made my case very well for me, if not better than I might do. Thanks DD.

I saw this post on MN and thought that it perfectly sums up how I feel about "trans" women:

Trans women demands:
"Please use x pronouns, because it respects and affirms that I am a woman.

Please accept me using x facilities even though it excludes females from any resources or facilities, because it respects and affirms that I am a woman.

Please accept me providing rape crisis care and rape examinations to you even though you have specifically requested that you have a female practitioner and would be distressed by a male one, because it respects and affirms that you see me as a woman.

Please accept that some lesbians have penises and 'learn to cope' (a direct quote from a well known TW academic and athlete) with sex with a male body that you do not want and do not enjoy but should work hard to overcome your resistance to, because you being a female homosexual permitting me to have sex with you respects and affirms that you see me as a woman.

At what point in this do female people get to have boundaries and to say no? The answer, honestly, is not at all, isn't it?

At what point in this is there any mutual respect for the female? Any mutual caring about her as a person, her views, her needs, her sense of identity? We're talking about humans. Not service droids."