How do you deal with persistent unwanted behaviours?

violetsky How would you deal with the situation I described where a child considers that if her parents can sanction her when she does things they do not like her doing, then she can sanction them when they do things that she doesn't like and sometimes she does things that are dangerous?

You see violetsky there is no way I let a child lurch down the road to exclusion with repeated behaviours, when a firm (fierce?) “No” would stop that in its tracks. Which of the two would be the more damaging?

Is constant removal from contact with your peers any better? How does that teach them how to interact in an acceptable way?

Yes talk to them to begin with, remove from the situation if the child has lost control but when talking and removal don’t change the behaviour then what? Continue with what’s proved to be ineffective?

Is it possible that some approaches have more to do with preserving the adults ego and self image than with helping the child?

Is it possible that some approaches have more to do with preserving the adults ego and self image than with helping the child?

Yes.

I think you have to stop looking at individual incidents and look at the child's life as a whole. For example a child who does dangerous and risky things, does her life have a place where she can do risky things safely with supervision or is she living in a protected environment and so just trying out her natural spirit of adventure whenever she can? Introducing something like climbing might help.
If a child is hitting and seems to enjoy hurting others, is that really the reason? If so where did he learn this was enjoyable? Inflicting pain on others (or oneself) is sometimes a way of coping with emotions we can't handle. Of course the child has to be stopped, but other measures need to go into place as well if there is a pattern. Praise and positive reinforcement of kind actions, discussion of how the child is feeling and a recognition that children do have dark moods which they need help to cope with all help.
M0nica I think sometimes you do need to explain to children that they are not adults and yes adults sometimes do things children don't like. If it's something that can be discussed because it is questionable (say something like smoking) then you will discuss it and try to change, but if it is a situation which involves safety or impacts on family life, then the adult takes precedence (point out she'll benefit from that when she is older). As for the dangerous, see suggestion above.

You also have to be mindful that the other child or children involved can see that the first child's unwanted behaviour has been adequately dealt with. Otherwise why should any of them behave?
And other children are often less accommodating than an adult who can see the first child's bigger picture.

trisher Do you think I didn't do all these things? However for talk to be effective, the person you are talking to has to be listening. if they are, at the same time telling a story about the mythical people who live in the stream but come into the house and are jumping up and down on my head and shoulders and running up and down my arms, they are not listening.

And that still doesn't address the issue of her punishing her parents in non-dangerous ways.

Peasblossom

You see violetsky there is no way I let a child lurch down the road to exclusion with repeated behaviours, when a firm (fierce?) “No” would stop that in its tracks. Which of the two would be the more damaging?

Is constant removal from contact with your peers any better? How does that teach them how to interact in an acceptable way?

Yes talk to them to begin with, remove from the situation if the child has lost control but when talking and removal don’t change the behaviour then what? Continue with what’s proved to be ineffective?

Is it possible that some approaches have more to do with preserving the adults ego and self image than with helping the child?

Well obviously I'm not the one who writes the training for these things but, I do see them work and I do see the difference between how children respond to methods by older staff and younger staff

M0nica

violetsky How would you deal with the situation I described where a child considers that if her parents can sanction her when she does things they do not like her doing, then she can sanction them when they do things that she doesn't like and sometimes she does things that are dangerous?

I always explain to children that as an adult it is my job to keep them safe. They are asked what they think is safe and they usually know the answer.

While encouraging them to take risks, like climbing the monkey bars.

If we ask not tell, then children take responsibility for their own behaviour. There's absolutely no point in just shouting "no" without talking it through afterwards but obviously sometimes the "stop what you are doing" must come first.

There are lots of ways we reinforce these things.

One example. They don't really need to line up quietly and wait to be taken into class but the places they line up is also the place where they would line up for a fire drill so when they are asked to line up in any scenario, they do so quietly and they should be looking to the adults for instruction.

Children who struggle to be quiet or not fidgeting about might get the responsibility of being at the front of the line and setting an example for the others.. This gives them something to focus on.

It works very well

Im always on duty outside because building good relationships with children is my strong point and I'm also trained to deal with all the children with medical needs

It helps that I have hobbies in common with them like computer games etc from years of joining in with my children lol

M0nicaAs you haven't given details I have no idea what you have done. I was making general suggestions which might also help you.
Many children have diversionary tactics when someone is trying to discipline them to avoid listening.
Presumably you have tried just waiting until the story finishes and then give the talk? One of the things it is vital to do is to maintain eye contact. I've seen really confrontational children
back down when the adult has insisted they must look at them whilst they are talking. It means constantly stopping and insisting eye contact is maintained.
I'm not sure what you mean by punishing the parents. I'm tryng to imagine a situation where a child could do that and finding it difficult. My GCs do play games where I'm the naughty one who has to be disciplined(I'm beaten and/or locked in cupboards ) But they are very aware it is a game. Is it a power thing? would giving control of a little area help?

Mmm. But you and presumably your setting would use exclusion as a consequence, which I never would and never did.

Is sticking to your principles worth more than a child’s future?

How do you punish parents? You deliberately slowdown everything you are doing when you are aware there is a deadline for going somewhere - like school, or to visit grandparents. You do it with slowness and subtly, cutting your breakfast into very small pieces and then carefully eating it piece by piece and that can take a very long time. Sent to tidy your bedroom, you start by very slowly and very carefully rearranging the dolls house. No point in waiting for a story to end, as soon as you speak it starts up again. There is no limit to a child's inventiveness, when they really put their mind to it.

Peasblossom

Mmm. But you and presumably your setting would use exclusion as a consequence, which I never would and never did.

Is sticking to your principles worth more than a child’s future?

I am not sure if you are asking me, because I already answered

I guess.

Well have to disagree on who is the most important then.

Peasblossom I love my job, I love children, I respect children and I never give up on a child. There is always something to like or love about all children

If you think those approached are more about my ego than children's best interests then, again, I'm following my training and I've personally had positive results so that's all I can base what I'm saying on

Are we discussing small children or teenagers?

When small, persistence pays off.

When they were teenagers I bought them backpacks and off they went to explore and find their feet.

Breakfast would be taken away & thrown in the bin,… sad to say actions sometimes speak better than words.

I.e , sad that it can sometimes gets to that stage.

MOnica
You forgot and now you’ve made me late for school
I would say my granddaughter punishes my daughter every day ?

I am dropping out of this thread. it is getting too personal.

Well you were the one who said you would go for exclusion when your approaches failed. Get rid of the problem so that you can enjoy success.

Me, I’d change my approach. I’d acknowledge that it didn’t work for them rather than make them bear the consequences of my determination to be right.

Having been in the era of child centred education I’m increasing flummoxed by the sausage machine approach where the adhering to the theory is more important than than it’s effectiveness. Not just behaviour, reading, Maths, too.

Isn’t the child making the required progress, persist with what’s proved ineffective. Still no progress, increase what’s ineffective. Still not meeting the adult expectations. Must be something wrong. Special Needs obviously.

Anything rather than change the adult opinion and belief. It seems to me that the insistence on one route to behaviour is the same.

There that’s my hobby horse off my chest for the evening

Peasblossom

Well you were the one who said you would go for exclusion when your approaches failed. Get rid of the problem so that you can enjoy success.

Me, I’d change my approach. I’d acknowledge that it didn’t work for them rather than make them bear the consequences of my determination to be right.

Having been in the era of child centred education I’m increasing flummoxed by the sausage machine approach where the adhering to the theory is more important than than it’s effectiveness. Not just behaviour, reading, Maths, too.

Isn’t the child making the required progress, persist with what’s proved ineffective. Still no progress, increase what’s ineffective. Still not meeting the adult expectations. Must be something wrong. Special Needs obviously.

Anything rather than change the adult opinion and belief. It seems to me that the insistence on one route to behaviour is the same.

There that’s my hobby horse off my chest for the evening

No I didn't, I'm not in charge

We use many different approaches, techniques and resources to help all children reach their full potential. It's a holistic approach

Peasblossom I see what you have picked up on

It should say "very serious consequences can mean exclusion"

Did not say I recommend that or that I would be part of that decision and I did not say that is what I condone.

It can happen, I think it would have to be something extremely serious.

We do have children who have been excluded from other schools and they are doing well

Bridgeit

Breakfast would be taken away & thrown in the bin,… sad to say actions sometimes speak better than words.

Someone I know used to do that with her husband's dinner if he stayed in the pub too long.
It didn't make any difference.

I currently work with children with additional needs across a range of education settings, I dont recognise what you are describing peasblossom.