Vagina Museum

I don't think exaggerating the numbers detransitioning or using twitter or other social media as a source of accurate information is helpful to anyone. Detailed and accurate research is the only real way to ensure help is properly available.
Indeed, but it is not clear who it is who you think is exaggerating these numbers, nor how you compare what you see as 'exaggeration' with the 'figures' for discrimination against transpeople or the percentage of transpeople who attempt suicide, when there is no register of transpeople, and suicide attempts are not routinely recorded? These 'statistics' have been posted more than once, and requests for some sort of verification have been ignored.

I would suggest that Sinead Watson is in a better position to know even approximate numbers than anyone casually posing on a discussion board, wouldn't you?

I apologise in advance for the pomposity of what follows, but the sad thing is that you seem unable to recognise that in posting unfounded allegations of racism, nazism and homophobia against those who question the TRA ideology, you create a foundation on which others will build, which only serves to maintain and increase the problems that confused young people face when told that they can change sex, and faced by women who find their sex-based spaces denied them. That bigotry and discrimination builds on these things. And caring means not stirring up hate and prejudice (whether against gender-critical feminists in particular, or women in general) unnecessarily.

Have I ever mentioned any level of suicide as acceptable whatever the sex of the victim or the reason for it?
But I’ve read posts, where you support children being offered physical and chemical changes so I’m glad to hear you wouldn’t find any level of that acceptable now.

The sad thing, is that in promoting the ease of transition via chemical and physical treatment, and making it seem like the norm, more and more children are thinking it will solve all their problems, when in fact it’s not the norm, and the problems may well still exist, in addition to the problems of irrevocable or painful and lengthy treatment to try and reverse the procedure.

Thank you Doodledog, you put that so much better than I did.

Doodledog did you bother to read the suicide information? Of course it isn't possible to have actual figures, so we rely heavily on the reports from young people about their feelings and attempts. Do you really expect a bereaved parent to say that their child committed suicide because their transgenderism wasn't supported?

If looking at the history of transgenderism, it's development, subsequent oppresion and the resulting Nazi attrocities, bothers you, perhaps you should consider why. There is no doubt that the first transgender clinic was in Germany in the 1930s and the Nazis shut it down.

I have never denied women sex based spaces and constantly drawn attention to the law as it stands. Something you seem completely unable to accept.

I don't see how one person dealing with any issue can possibly have a detailed knowledge of all the statistics involved. If scientific researchers find accurate information difficult to uncover how on earth would one person know more?

I know two FTM trans people who detransitioned and one MTF trans person who detransitioned. It does happen, it always has but I'm not sure how widely know about it is.

I also know someone who can live as either gender due to their birth assignment and lives as either .I can't help thinking that if self acceptance was taught from an early age, people might be less likely to label themselves or feel pressure to make lasting decisions that they cannot fully understand the implications of at a very young age.

trisher

Re. suicide information? Of course it isn't possible to have actual figures, so we rely heavily on the reports from young people about their feelings and attempts.

So if it’s acceptable not to have actual figures for this, it’s obviously acceptable not to have actual figures for those who detransition but only the feedback from those affected.
Parents who didn’t support the transition will naturally blame the clinic or hospital where the treatment took place and we'll know about them more easily than those whose parents supported the transition and then feel guilty about their detransitioning child’s affected or ruined future.
Your preoccupation with Nazis?

Doodledog did you bother to read the suicide information? Of course it isn't possible to have actual figures, so we rely heavily on the reports from young people about their feelings and attempts. Do you really expect a bereaved parent to say that their child committed suicide because their transgenderism wasn't supported?

Did you bother to read my post? The point I was making was that you call figures into question when they point at holes in your argument, but when we recently had a 1000 post thread based on figures for attempted suicide there was no response to repeated requests for clarification as to how they had been reached, given the lack of records of either transpeople or suicide attempts.

OnwardandUpward

I know two FTM trans people who detransitioned and one MTF trans person who detransitioned. It does happen, it always has but I'm not sure how widely know about it is.

I also know someone who can live as either gender due to their birth assignment and lives as either .I can't help thinking that if self acceptance was taught from an early age, people might be less likely to label themselves or feel pressure to make lasting decisions that they cannot fully understand the implications of at a very young age.

I agree, OAU.

To me, it is the concept of 'gender' that it to blame. Gender is just stereotypes based on sex, and sex can't be changed, so it would make more sense to break down the link between sex and so-called 'gender norms', and live and let live.

Thanks Doodledog! I agree with you as well! If there wasn't such gendered stereotypes and we could all just BE. If we could all be accepted as people... Then people would not feel like they needed to look this this in order to be accepted as that. They could just get on with being their own unique selves and happy in their own skin.

But the fashion and beauty industry does not want this!! Every day I see more young girls with fillers, who would be beautiful- but have seen fit to allow their pretty faces to be injected -this is just one aspect of a toxic society where everyone (or at least many people) want to be something they're not.

Doodledog

*Doodledog did you bother to read the suicide information? Of course it isn't possible to have actual figures, so we rely heavily on the reports from young people about their feelings and attempts. Do you really expect a bereaved parent to say that their child committed suicide because their transgenderism wasn't supported?*

Did you bother to read my post? The point I was making was that you call figures into question when they point at holes in your argument, but when we recently had a 1000 post thread based on figures for attempted suicide there was no response to repeated requests for clarification as to how they had been reached, given the lack of records of either transpeople or suicide attempts.

I posted three links to information about suicide attempts and transgender today Doodledog I'm sorry if this information wasn't posted on another thread (isn't there a GN rule about cross threads?) But it is there now.

You are missing the point quite spectacularly, trisher, whether deliberately or otherwise.

Doodledog

You are missing the point quite spectacularly, trisher, whether deliberately or otherwise.

Perhaps I am but the evidence is there disregarding it or playing semantics shows a distinct lack of concern for suicidal people.

Mollygo

trisher

Re. suicide information? Of course it isn't possible to have actual figures, so we rely heavily on the reports from young people about their feelings and attempts.

So if it’s acceptable not to have actual figures for this, it’s obviously acceptable not to have actual figures for those who detransition but only the feedback from those affected.
Parents who didn’t support the transition will naturally blame the clinic or hospital where the treatment took place and we'll know about them more easily than those whose parents supported the transition and then feel guilty about their detransitioning child’s affected or ruined future.
Your preoccupation with Nazis?

If there are research studies dealing with detransition please do post a link Mollygo I'd love to read them.

So if it’s acceptable not to have actual figures for this, it’s obviously acceptable not to have actual figures for those who detransition but only the feedback from those affected.
See you aren’t answering this. Is it only acceptable not to have figures for your points?

trisher

Doodledog
You are missing the point quite spectacularly, trisher, whether deliberately or otherwise.
Perhaps I am but the evidence is there disregarding it or playing semantics shows a distinct lack of concern for suicidal people. Not really my post to answer, but I can’t find anything that shows any lack of concern for suicidal people.
Except perhaps for those who talk about suicide amongst trans and still support physical and chemical changes to children and young people’s bodies which result in them committing suicide.

There arent studies firstly because the phenomena of female to male transition increase is so recent that its not possible, we are watching it unfold in front of our eyes. Secondly because those who provide health care for transpeople seem to have been completely inadquate in keeping accurate data.

Actually I’ve been spending some time on line and there are some quite recent 2021 studies on detransitioning. As far as I can tell reputable from places like Cambridge University.

That particular one found that 13.6% of a transitioned cohort wished to retranstion within a five year period . Most frequently cited reasons were that transition had not helped their negative body image or their mental problems as they had believed it would.

The study’s conclusions were that the desire to retransition was more common than previously reported.

An disturbing observation was that LGBTQ+ organisations had given support to almost all the cohort during the initial transition but had offered support to only 13% of those who wished to retransition. Participants in the study spoke of hostility to their requests for support.

I can’t give accurate figures for those detransitioning, but I would point out that in those three links you quoted Trisher none of them refer to figures/research later than 2018, and the earliest I spotted (very quick glance) was 2011.
Now I think we’d all accept that things have moved on a lot since even 2018; there’s been a known 4,000% increase in the numbers of young girls/women seeking to transition, and that’s why I’m willing to believe someone like Sinead Watson who has actual lived experience of both transition and detransition.
I accept that Twitter isn’t the best place to find accurate research/numbers but I feel nothing for admiration for the many Sineads who are now finding the courage to come forward and tell their horror stories, while knowing that trans activists will be absolutely vile to them.
There’s a long read posted today on Twitter by another detransitioner. It can be found at helena @lacroicsz. It can also be found on lacroicsz.substack.com
She’s American, but a lot of it is applicable to what’s been happening here, other than her having to buy her own testosterone, which in the UK is prescribed for the young girls/women. Fortunately, she never went as far as surgery for which she is very grateful.

This is an interesting NHS study www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-open/article/access-to-care-and-frequency-of-detransition-among-a-cohort-discharged-by-a-uk-national-adult-gender-identity-clinic-retrospective-casenote-review/3F5AC1315A49813922AAD76D9E28F5CB
It isn't a large study.

This is an interesting study but it doesn’t explain why you’re so pro transition, even knowing what harm it can do to those who don’t really understand the future impact it has, and even maybe those who do.

Mollygo

This is an interesting study but it doesn’t explain why you’re so pro transition, even knowing what harm it can do to those who don’t really understand the future impact it has, and even maybe those who do.

Once again a complete misrepresentation of my views. The only reason I can think for people to keep posting what I supposedly think is that they understand their own views are unacceptable and mine are reasonable and so they try desperately to discredit me.
I am pro people being able to live happily and safely in whatever way they choose to, providing in doing so they cause no harm to others. If transitioning is their choice why would I offer any opposition to that choice any more than I would oppose someone choosing a gay marriage.
I really don't understand why any of you constantly feel the need to assign me views which harm, victimise or denigrate another human being.

I really don't understand why any of you constantly feel the need to assign me views which harm, victimise or denigrate another human being.

We don't 'assign you these views', we read your posts, which repeatedly supported policies that allow women to be locked up with sex offending men in jails, to flee violence to refuges where men are allowed to stay, to lose in sporting contests to physically stronger men, and to be expected to refer to the person who raped her as 'she', amongst other things. All of which harm and denigrate other human beings.

Just popping in to say that trans women are women and deserve to be in any space where cis women are. And the law, by and large, supports that.

AmberSpyglass firstly 'cis' is an extremely offensive term and it would be nice if you could show a smidgeon of respect and not use it. Secondly, popping in, as is your want, only to post your repeated mantra that transwomen are women doesn't make it true and doesn't actually add anything to the conversation does it? What has a transwoman transed from? Strange that you never mention transmen or non-binary, but I expect you have your reasons. I think you'll find that transwomen are transwomen, the clue being in the title.

Doodledog

*I really don't understand why any of you constantly feel the need to assign me views which harm, victimise or denigrate another human being.*

We don't 'assign you these views', we read your posts, which repeatedly supported policies that allow women to be locked up with sex offending men in jails, to flee violence to refuges where men are allowed to stay, to lose in sporting contests to physically stronger men, and to be expected to refer to the person who raped her as 'she', amongst other things. All of which harm and denigrate other human beings.

This
And thanks Rosie51 for reminding Amber that cis is offensive to the majority