Vagina Museum

Maybe this mythical shift of women security officers would consist entirely of transwomen.

I hadn'theard of Detransition Awareness day apparentlyit started last year. I'm not sure about the thousands most seem to say less than that. But each individual case must be so difficult for the individual. One of the main reasons given for detransitioning is social pressure and family opposition which means acceptance is still a problem. This is helpful www.verywellhealth.com/detransition-or-retransition-5093126

SueDonim

Maybe this mythical shift of women security officers would consist entirely of transwomen.

Perhaps it would. Would that mean they would or would not be entitled to refuse to search a male person?

Who knows? Maybe invest in robots to do the job. Problem solved.

The information coming out now around detransition is around sexuality, women who have experienced abuse, and those who are autistic. We have absolutely no clue about this cohort of women as there hasnt been time to study the issues.

I didn’t suppose you would have heard of Detransition Awareness Day Trisher.
People who still believe you can change sex or who aren’t denying there’s anything wrong with allowing and/or supporting children changing their bodies by chemical or physical means are unlikely to want to hear from those who have found what a mistake it was.

One of the main reasons given for detransitioning is social pressure and family opposition which means acceptance is still a problem.
Not that it was a mistake in the first place? Not that binding the chests of children is the thin end of a dubious wedge? Or that telling them that it is possible to change sex is leading them down the wrong path?

No, of course not - it has to be prejudice and lack of acceptance. It has to be the fault of everyone and everything except the ideology.

The link between trans children and autism has been known for some time. Unless there have been developments I've missed, it is not known whether the link is correlation or causation, but it is there. Similarly, the links with confusion around sexuality.

Well any study that talks about retransition because Many activists and allies encourage the use of retransition rather than detransition to recognize that gender is a journey that may not necessarily go in a straight line. definitely has an agenda.

People who undergo transition whether or not that includes surgery and hormones or just a change of dress aren't ongoing monitored by health professionals so the number of detransitioners cannot be known. Didn't it emerge from the Tavistock that the sick joke there was soon there'd be no gays at all. Many of the parents who took children there were homophobic and would rather have a trans child than a homosexual one.

The absolute anomaly is that children and young people are said by activists to be able to make these decisions and choices even as minors.

Meanwhile in Scotland sentencing guidelines have been implemented to reflect scientific evidence the brain is not fully developed below the age of 25 www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60137866

Doodledog

*One of the main reasons given for detransitioning is social pressure and family opposition which means acceptance is still a problem.*
Not that it was a mistake in the first place? Not that binding the chests of children is the thin end of a dubious wedge? Or that telling them that it is possible to change sex is leading them down the wrong path?

No, of course not - it has to be prejudice and lack of acceptance. It has to be the fault of everyone and everything except the ideology.

The link between trans children and autism has been known for some time. Unless there have been developments I've missed, it is not known whether the link is correlation or causation, but it is there. Similarly, the links with confusion around sexuality.

So what are you questioning Doodledog the statements from people detransitioning that it was social pressures?
Isn't that really adding to their already massive problems ?
Or someone actually daring to record their statements?
Or that it doesn't fit your personal views?
The website I linked to is written by established journalists and there are links at the bottom to the research that informed their writing.

It is interesting that in spite of all the posts on here about how gender isn't an actuality, the exploration of gender, the language which surrounds it, and the efforts of people to find what is right for them is dismissed so easily.

Isn't it right for a journalist to discuss and explain the language people are using? Are you now policing language? Rosie51

I can see nothing to crow about, nothing to think of as positive in the whole situation. When there are young people accessing drugs on line or on the street because they don't want to share their transgender problem with their family doctor, whilst transgenderism is scarcely touched on during medical training and whilst some people show such antagonism at any point I really can't see that anything, except offering sympathy, care and understanding to everyone involved, transitioning, detransitioning or retransitioning, is what is needed.

*So what are you questioning Doodledog the statements from people detransitioning that it was social pressures?
Isn't that really adding to their already massive problems ?
Or someone actually daring to record their statements?
Or that it doesn't fit your personal views?*

None of the above. I do wish you would stop putting words into my mouth.

Are you now policing language? Rosie51 hahahaha this from the person who is so "inclusive language" "birthing person" is preferable to mother etc Are you for real trisher or is this another TTP post, it's so hard to tell?

Most people would think that drastic irreversible surgery should only come after extensive counselling. Listen to Kiera Bell, Sinead Watson and so many others and how they were let down and then consider if you need to listen more, preach less. This is people's lives that were destroyed, they aren't part of your propaganda program. Ask Lauren Black, a butch lesbian in a loving relationship who is told by TRAs she should transition to a man to ease her dysphoria, despite her telling them she's a woman. I despair.

Read -and these are only a few. It’s far more important than whether you use a different pronoun. If you don’t like it, ask GN to delete it.
______

“I DO acknowledge I made the choice to transition, but it shouldn’t have been allowed in the first place! Removing healthy body parts to treat a mental health issue? Telling an 18-year-old girl that cross sex hormones would fix her? Why shouldn’t I blame the people who allowed this? 

I saw a handful of therapists to start transitioning. None of them tried to work with me through my dysphoria. None told me that dysphoria can go away naturally, or that there are options other than biomedical. I was 18. F***.”

I recognize now that trans ideology sold me on the idea that I could identify into the powerful group. I was hurt knowing I couldn’t marry a woman at that time. Hurt that I couldn’t have a family that looked like the only families I had seen until then. The idea I could identify out of oppression and be a straight man instead, felt liberating. There are few studies behind detransition rates, but I can tell you that there are thousands of us. Our voices are hidden because we’re seen by the queer community as an inconvenient consequence of their movement. We are just collateral damage for the greater good. Many, maybe most, are gender nonconforming lesbians…. Most desisted at the same age as me, around age 25. This is not a coincidence. This is the age your brain becomes fully developed.
——————

I can't believe I was allowed to get a mastectomy at 18 and suicidal nonetheless. I don't know why I wasn't stopped when I panicked before the surgery. I don't know why my psychologist didn't question me or try to get me to reflect on the choice more than "I don't like my breasts so they have to come off".

I didn't like the way they looked. I didn't like the way they felt. I felt gross. I think I could've learned to like them. I wish I would've gotten help in loving myself and accepting my body instead of changing the bits I didn't like. My body wasn't even done growing when I got them cut off.”

________________

“I discovered the online trans community, who enabled my feeling of self-hatred and led me to believe that transitioning was the cure all to all of my problems. … [I] realized that transitioning had not fixed any of my problems.

Re.DetransitionAwarenessDay - there are approx 26,000 desisters/detransitioners on the appropriate sub-Reddit. I have no way of knowing how many are genuine, but believe women like Sinead Watson (a detransitioner) when she says there are thousands that are genuine.
None of the detransitioned women posting their stories on Twitter say that social/family pressure was a reason to detransition. They all say they had gender dysphoria, and were offered no alternative treatment for this other than drugs/surgery. Sadly, their dysphoria wasn’t cured. Other main reasons for detransitioning is that they realised that they had associated mental health problems and or autism which exacerbated the dysphoria, but these problems still existed as trans men. Some of them were sexually abused and thought they’d be safer as trans men. Also, the testosterone/other drugs they took caused huge problems for a lot of them. And they nearly all deeply, deeply regret having had double mastectomies, and some of them have had or are going to have reconstruction.
Some of Watson’s posts are heart-breaking, she’s been left with a deep, manly sounding voice, she has no breasts, if I recall she’s also infertile. But she is happy to be a woman.

Mollygo you posted whilst I was typing.

Sinead Watson has posted a photo of herself 2 years post detransition. Thankfully she looks lovely, and much more feminine. She's so honest about the whole episode in her life.

Rosie51 I think she comes across as a lovely young woman, she also writes really well and has a great sense of humour. If she was my daughter I’d be very proud of how she’s coped the last couple of years.
Some of the trans activist posts on the detransitioners Twitter threads were awful, for people that consistently trot out “Be Kind” and “Be Inclusive”, they certainly never are. It’s cult-like behaviour to me, toe the line or beware.

grannydarkhair

Rosie51 I think she comes across as a lovely young woman, she also writes really well and has a great sense of humour. If she was my daughter I’d be very proud of how she’s coped the last couple of years.
Some of the trans activist posts on the detransitioners Twitter threads were awful, for people that consistently trot out “Be Kind” and “Be Inclusive”, they certainly never are. It’s cult-like behaviour to me, toe the line or beware.

If she was my daughter I’d be very proud of how she’s coped the last couple of years Me too, I so admire Sinead. While she's honest enough to say she wishes her family had stopped her, she's also honest enough to say she'd probably have ignored / fought against them and doesn't blame them in the slightest. I'm so pleased to see her looking like the beautiful young woman she is.

I've heard Sinead speak, in person, saying that there was almost no 'assessment' before she was approved for medication and surgery, and no follow up at all from the gender clinic, so the clinic had no idea that she had decided to stop medication and that their treatment of her had not helped her at all.

I can see nothing to crow about, nothing to think of as positive in the whole situation. When there are young people accessing drugs on line or on the street because they don't want to share their transgender problem with their family doctor, whilst transgenderism is scarcely touched on during medical training and whilst some people show such antagonism at any point I really can't see that anything, except offering sympathy, care and understanding to everyone involved, transitioning, detransitioning or retransitioning, is what is needed. Those stories are tragic, and I see no ‘crowing’ from anyone. Not that I would have expected to see crowing on here, where I have rarely seen anything other than support for transpeople- it is TRAs and Stonewall who come in for criticism, and the ideology that drives them.

I assume that the ‘some people’ who are accused of showing antagonism are posters on here? Perhaps you could clear that up, trisher? It is difficult to respond to these non-specific digs, so I will just say that the antagonism is to those whose unquestioning zeal for so-called ‘trans rights’ has led to the tragic stories above.

How anyone can parrot ‘No Debate’ in the face of testaments like that is beyond me. Surely ‘sympathy, care and understanding’ would include an acknowledgment that a rush to operate (or medicate) based on a ‘feeling’ that a young woman or girl wants to be a man (or a young man or boy wants to be a woman), particularly when they can’t even define ‘man’ or ‘woman’, is premature. Many troubled young people desperately want to be someone other than who they are. For many, part of growing up is to ‘try on’ different personae and ways of life. If you add in something like Autism or confusion about sexuality you have a perfect storm.

Well let's look at some figures that might be of interest in examining de-transitioning.
There are roughly 18000 double masectomies performed in the UK every year. That number composes mostly women with a family history of breast cancer and has risen quite dramatically after several celebrities announced they were doing it. Even if we say 10% of those operations are transpeople that leads to 1,800, even if 50% of those people regret the operation that makes 900. So where does the "thousands" come from?
I fully agree that anyone transitioning should have the very best counselling and advice before any surgical procedure.
But inflating the figures, relying on Twitter and unsubstantiated statements for information and disregarding genuine research helps no-one.
It would help if instead of just emoting over one aspect of the problem posters actually looked for the evidence. The wider story is always far more complicated than some choose to present.
The problem of transwomen and prison for example did not begin with the authorities just deciding to put transwomen in women's jails. It began with the deaths of 4 transwomen who committed suicide because they were in a man's prison. Perhaps the authorities should have examin;,m,m m ed what would happen more carefully and looked for ways of dealing with things but does anyone really think transwomen should just have been left to kill themselves?

does anyone really think transwomen should just have been left to kill themselves?

No one, in any prison, refuge, safe house, hospital or any areas where people are vulnerable, should be made additionally in more danger and more vulnerable because of a minority and that includes women, men, trans men and trans women. What you're glibly glossing over is that there have been too many male sexual predators who, when faced with being sentenced to a prison term in a male estate, have suddenly discovered that they're actually a trans woman and demand to be housed in a female estate. You know this because, even if your reading and research matter is trans biased and omits these facts, you've had many examples provided to you on the many threads about this subject. You therefore have no excuse for not knowing.

I assume that as the detransitioner support thread is on the internet that it covers many countries, some countries are much further down this route than Britain, the US and Canada to name two. So I think thousands is quite possible, it is very difficult to rely on the statistics as it is clear that certainly sone places such as the tavistock are not operating to any kind of acceptable standards in terms of data collection. This is one of the things that us bigots have been campaigning about.
I think transwomen should be given appropriate mental health support, I am not sure that professionals even know what that is at the moment, as again there appears to be minimal follow up on people who have transitioned.
I dont think women should be told they arent allowed boundaries because of suicide amongst men.

The only mention of 'thousands' I can find in the past few posts is in Grannydarkhair's post where she says:
there are approx 26,000 desisters/detransitioners on the appropriate sub-Reddit. I have no way of knowing how many are genuine, but believe women like Sinead Watson (a detransitioner) when she says there are thousands that are genuine.

Compare that with your arbitrary decision to 'let's say' that 10% of those having double mastectomies are trans and that 50% of those regret it, then come back and complain about inaccurate figures. GDH acknowledges that it is not possible to get genuine figures, but quotes from someone who has lived experience and is part of the detransitioning community - the figure of thousands comes from Sinead Watson, unless I have missed it on another, earlier post.

I have repeatedly taken issue with 'research' or with statements that claim to show figures for the percentage of trans people who are victimised, or who attempt suicide or whatever, but my questions, even when repeated are simply ignored. There are none, because there can't be.

It is not a question of 'just emoting' (although your dismissive way of describing concern about the misled and mistreated young people involved is very telling). It is a question of wondering why, all of a sudden, children are claiming to be 'in the wrong body', or to 'just know' that they belong to the opposite sex, and why this is linked to women losing safe spaces and the right to compete in sex-classes rather than so-called 'genders'. In anticipation of your response that transpeople have always been with us - yes, I am sure that this is the case, but it is not the case that they have been with us in anything like the numbers that they are now. The rise in numbers has coincided with the silencing of questioners, and with the conflation (in the TRA script) of a concern for victims like Sinead Watson and Kiera Bell with racism, homophobia and eugenics.

The creep of initiatives such as pronouns on email signatures and Teams/Zoom screens (whether or not you are personally familiar with the practices), the stated 'need' for dissenters to be 're-educated' so that they can 'reframe' their thought processes (even about their own traumas) has far more in common with dictatorships and authoritarianism than a questioning of self-appointed guardians of morality.

As for the idea that anyone who believes that women should not be locked in prison cells with male-bodied sex offenders thinks that transpeople should be left to kill themselves - that is idiotic, and yet another example of twisting what people are saying and putting words into their mouths. It is not a binary choice (and why that needs to be said is beyond me). The answer, quite clearly, is that more funding needs to be given to prisons, and that experts (psychologists, criminologists and the like) should be paid to come up with solutions that work for everyone. The solution won't be found by posters on a discussion board for older women, unless they too are experts in the field.

In the current political situation, however, that is unlikely to happen, but as a feminist I believe that this is not a reason to put women at risk in the meantime.

The posts I added may mention unsubstantiated figures. I was sent the link from someone attempting to detransition, and having to cope with the fact that she is infertile and will need reconstructive surgery.
However, that brings us back to the oft repeated question; * Are you saying it’s less real and painful and wrong to encourage or allow children to have their bodies changed by chemical or physical treatment if the numbers are smaller?*
Trisher, what figure of detransitions would you find acceptable before it becomes unacceptable to allow and encourage children to undergo chemical or physical treatment to change their bodies, either irrevocably or with only a painful or difficult reversal?

I would find the figure zero acceptable for any process which was completely irreversible as far as detransitioning goes Mollygo. Just as I would find the figure zero acceptable for anyone failing to find access or help to deal with their gender issues. However I am sensible and practical enough to know that in some countries where private surgery is the norm, just as with other procedures to change people's bodies, there will be surgeons who will undertake the work and people who will regret having the procedure.
I don't think exaggerating the numbers detransitioning or using twitter or other social media as a source of accurate information is helpful to anyone. Detailed and accurate research is the only real way to ensure help is properly available.

Here's a link to the US study on suicide and the trans community
williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/suicidality-transgender-adults/
Here's a link to a Canadian suicide prevention organisation
www.suicideinfo.ca/resource/transgender-people-suicide/
Here's a link t Stonewall Stats (because I know you love them!)
www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/trans_stats.pdf

I could ask the same question Mollygo did, what level of suicide would you find acceptable amongst transgender people?
But I won't because it is a silly question. I'm sure you would post you cared very much about them. The sad thing is that you seem unable to recognise that in posting many of the things you do you create a foundation on which others will build and which only serves to maintain and increase the problems young people face. That bigotry and discrimination feeds on these things. And caring means not stirring up hate and prejudice unnecessarily.