Vagina Museum

Lathyrus there is nothing new in sections of the gay community refusing to recognise or mix with the trans community. It's one of the reasons black and Latino trans and gay people set up the ball culture in New York where they could be fully accepted and acknowledged. White gay bars at the time banned transwomen and particularly Latino transwomen.
I'm sure just as I don't speak for the entire heterosexual community you do not speak for the whole gay community.
Watch "Pose" or "Paris is Burning" if you want to know more.
The Stonewall riots were led by a bunch of cross dressing queens who used the pronoun "she"

Lathyrus I prefer "ally"

I didn't know you had been appointed to speak for all gay men lol

There was a lot of the saviour complex back in the nineties as well. I was probably guilty of it myself. I remember my friend being highly irritated if he thought he was being rescued. He was a force to be reckoned with.

Mmm. Ally means two sides together, mutual support.

So no, I think the word “Saviour” is more appropriate to your stance.

Like I keep saying trisha. Things have changed. Harking back to what they once were isnt really relevant in dealing with present issues.

Galaxy

There was a lot of the saviour complex back in the nineties as well. I was probably guilty of it myself. I remember my friend being highly irritated if he thought he was being rescued. He was a force to be reckoned with.

Yup, not everybody appreciates being the prop for the Saviours ego?

What happened to gay people decades ago is not what happens to trans people now.

People are not asking for discrimination against trans people. We are asking for safe spaces so that women and girls are protected from predatory men. Non-predatory men are happy not to enter these spaces - it’s not as though there are many of them.

We are also asking for children to be allowed to reach adulthood before taking decisions that may adversely affect the rest of their lives- is it not the role of a parent to make decisions on behalf of their children until they reach majority? We don’t allow children to drink or smoke - this is a similar situation. In all cases they can do it when they are adults, just not until.

Lathyrus

Mmm. Ally means two sides together, mutual support.

So no, I think the word “Saviour” is more appropriate to your stance.

Like I keep saying trisha. Things have changed. Harking back to what they once were isnt really relevant in dealing with present issues.

Honestly, I've got nothing... This has become quite bizarre

Lathyrus

Mmm. Ally means two sides together, mutual support.

So no, I think the word “Saviour” is more appropriate to your stance.

Like I keep saying trisha. Things have changed. Harking back to what they once were isnt really relevant in dealing with present issues.

George Santayana "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
The point is Lathyrus that not all gay people supported the trans community then, but some did. Just as now some will distance themselves and some will support trans people.
You cannot speak for everyone.

Incidently there is nothing intrinsically good about being gay, nor does it mean a person is always unbiased and not judgemental. Gay people can be just as discriminatory as anyone else.

Doodledog

What happened to gay people decades ago is not what happens to trans people now.

People are not asking for discrimination against trans people. We are asking for safe spaces so that women and girls are protected from predatory men. Non-predatory men are happy not to enter these spaces - it’s not as though there are many of them.

We are also asking for children to be allowed to reach adulthood before taking decisions that may adversely affect the rest of their lives- is it not the role of a parent to make decisions on behalf of their children until they reach majority? We don’t allow children to drink or smoke - this is a similar situation. In all cases they can do it when they are adults, just not until.

We might not allow it but teenagers drink, smoke and take illegal drugs. The alternative to getting a teenager help with their gender problem might well be them buying street drugs, which is even less safe. By all means restrict access to surgery but drugs which cease to have effects when stopped may be necessary for the child's safety.

So can trans people

Iam64

So can trans people

of course!

VioletSky

Lathyrus I prefer "ally"

I didn't know you had been appointed to speak for all gay men lol

Ally as in the Russian sense of “as long as you keep quiet and follow my line”

I’m nothing if not topical?

I don’t think I sad there was anything intrinsically good about being gay. Just that it’s not considered appropriate or desirable to conflate sexualities into one amorphous mass.

If a homosexual doesn’t believe his experiences are comparable to a trans experience then I think he’s probably right. Probably more right than someone who has never had his experiences anyway.

But Saviours always think only they have he truth. It’s part of the complex.

But Saviours always think only they have he truth. It’s part of the complex.

Yup. It goes along with the delusion that only they can define abstracts such as ‘kind’, ‘good’ or what it means to be an ‘ally’. Supreme arrogance really - the rest of us are keenly aware that these concepts are nuanced and cannot be applied in a blanket fashion.

No Lathyrus

I can see how you would think that because I can be quite passionate but my point of view has changed greatly on these discussions because I do listen.

I think as well that there is large element of point scoring that goes on in these discussions and it can be easy to get caught up in that. Even though personal point scoring does not len any weight to personal opinion.

Have you considered that maybe you move in different circles to me, so while I am repeating what I have heard in my circles and you are repeating what you have heard in yours, that doesn't make either of us "saviours" and qualified to speak for everyone.

Doodledog

*But Saviours always think only they have he truth. It’s part of the complex.*

Yup. It goes along with the delusion that only they can define abstracts such as ‘kind’, ‘good’ or what it means to be an ‘ally’. Supreme arrogance really - the rest of us are keenly aware that these concepts are nuanced and cannot be applied in a blanket fashion.

???

VioletSky

Mollygo Well that's just not true or fair really.

???

I put a moment on the wrong one of these threads

Going to take a break but I just wanted to say that while there are many differences between what different demographics go through that need to be aknowledged and respected and that is so so important.

When it comes to what discrimination is and what that looks like, I feel that rather than splitting it up into smaller fights, it's important that we all stand together against discrimination and for equality. We are louder and stronger together.

VioletSky

I put a moment on the wrong one of these threads

Going to take a break but I just wanted to say that while there are many differences between what different demographics go through that need to be aknowledged and respected and that is so so important.

When it comes to what discrimination is and what that looks like, I feel that rather than splitting it up into smaller fights, it's important that we all stand together against discrimination and for equality. We are louder and stronger together.

Well I’m not about to abandon my support for women only spaces, my rejection of men claiming to be women then competing against women in sport. Caitlin Jenner shares the opposition to this.
We are only louder and stronger together if we reach a degree of consensus

Excellent post @ 22.58 yesterday Rosie. Nothing that the gay community has fought for when it comes to equality has negatively impacted on the heterosexual community.

I don't remember that either FarNorth. My brother now in his is mid 60's and his friends of a similar age and older, never had any problems when using public toilets and changing rooms.

Too many general comments without anything to substantiate the claims being made appear on these threads Doodledog.

"The actions of a few ill-intentioned trans and their vociferous supporters and their determination to override women's (AHF) rights, as we have been saying, reflects badly on all the other trans." Exactly Mollgo.

I don't remember that either FarNorth. My brother now in his mid 60's and his friends of a similar age and older, never had any problems when using public toilets and changing rooms.
From an article tracing the history of Gay activism
In 1952, The Sunday Pictorial published a series of articles called ‘Evil Men’, taking a clear stand against any future legislation that could one day legalise homosexuality, as there were talks of introducing one at that time. One of their articles sheds light on the perception of homosexuality in British society at that time:

“[…] the chief danger of the perverts is the corrupting influence they have on youth. Most people know there are such things – ‘pansies’ – mincing, effeminate young men who call themselves queers. But simple decent folk regard them as freaks and rarities. […] If homosexuality were tolerated here, Britain would rapidly become decadent” (Sanderson, cited from Buckle, 46).

Not only was the general public influenced by the negative tone of the newspapers, homosexuality began to be defined and understood in these terms by everyone, including homosexuals themselves (Buckle, 47). There were constant associations between homosexuality and paedophilia at this point in time; the public opinion remained largely negative in the 1950s, and continued even until much later
I suppose I am older but that culture remained well into the 1960s and was still in some organisations and schools well into the '70s and 80s so gay teachers kept their sexuality very private.

I’m in agreement with trisher about teachers/social workers feeling the need to keep their homosexuality private. I’m relieved things have progressed and gay men are no longer assumed to be paedophiles

The fact that men are m0re likely to abuse women and children remains

Iam64, where I work there is now a gay teacher and there used to be a gay supply teacher famous for his smart dressing and flamboyant waistcoats (unfortunately he died recently) who brought their partners to PTA functions. We often deal with families who have split up where the mother’s new partner is female. So things are looking up from that point of view. Neither of them make/made any attempt to influence the children or announce(d) their sexuality, but they provide(d) excellent role models, as does Owain, the weather announcer on North West News.

Sadly your last sentence is true and allowing self id is making that easier for ill-intentioned males and is not not helping.

Our daughters went to a faith high school. The gym and drams teachers were lesbian.!!no issue. Fifth and sixth form students were delighted to see them on the Unison float

Up until recently I worked at a (very) Catholic Secondary School.
One of the assistant Heads is very openly gay, married and he and his husband are adoptive parents of a boy who attends the school.

There were several other openly gay male teachers.

I can’t recall any gay women though; I suppose they don’t tend to be so ‘open’ as men, if you know what I mean!