Vagina Museum

People know far less than I assumed

What are you assuming that we don't know? You can't be serious about thinking we haven't heard of Pride or Stonewall riots, surely?

I’ll just reiterate.

Please respect the wishes of the present gay communities who do perceive themselves or wish others to perceive them as sharing the same experiences as other sexual groups.

Who, notwithstanding mutual support that has been given within on-heterosexual groups in the past, now do not wish to be grouped with them or to have their separate issues conflated.

Who believe that the KGBQIT+ designation is no longer valid or helpful and do not wish to be called by a grouping that they find offensive.

The past is the past, things progress and change. Please respect that and their right to determine their own identity.

do not perceive

LGB..,

Ful, of typos. I’m getting upset by your refusal to give respect.☹️

Politely, no.

I can draw parallels between many marginalised groups and doing so promotes empathy and understanding, especially when the goal is equality for all

Especially when I fit in the LGBTQ+ spectrum myself as previously stated and have a voice here that is as valid as anyone else's

VS but if it doesn’t fit your thoughts, you won’t accept it anyway.

Mollygo Well that's just not true or fair really.

trisher

Funny isn't it though there are people on these threads who insist that trans people have mental health issues and need proper counselling not transition. When they commit a crime that's all forgotten, they're just bad people.

Trans-identified male prisoners should be housed somewhere separate from women.
If they also need mental health help, I hope they get it.

There is a much higher proportion of transwomen in the male prison population than in the general male population.
That could be because transwomen are more likely, than other men, to commit crimes.
Or it could be because some male criminals identify as women to get into women's prison.
In either case, yes they are bad people.

I remember people being uncomfortable about gay people in toilets and changing rooms
Really? I don't.

Surely gay people were already there, whether you knew they were gay or not?
Unlike this situation, where male people are intruding into female-only places.

I always had a lot of gay friends, especially during the time people were really coming out in droves and I was working and socialising with an energy I desperately miss, so lots of stories

Trans people have been using toilets and changing rooms for a long time too without anyone knowing any differently

Trans people have been using toilets and changing rooms for a long time too without anyone knowing any differently
People keep saying this on these threads, but don’t explain how they know differently. Clearly either those posters are different from the rest of us mortals, or the transpeople were less unobtrusive than you say.

In any event, as everyone else keeps saying - we don’t care if that happens. We’ve gone over and over the things that cause us concern, as well as the fact that ‘ordinary’ transpeople are not the issue.

VioletSky

Politely, no.

I can draw parallels between many marginalised groups and doing so promotes empathy and understanding, especially when the goal is equality for all

Especially when I fit in the LGBTQ+ spectrum myself as previously stated and have a voice here that is as valid as anyone else's

Stating you’re being polite, does not make it so.

VioletSky

Politely, no.

I can draw parallels between many marginalised groups and doing so promotes empathy and understanding, especially when the goal is equality for all

Especially when I fit in the LGBTQ+ spectrum myself as previously stated and have a voice here that is as valid as anyone else's

Well, there’s a facet.

I really thought if I explained why it’s not acceptable to the gay communities to for their issues to be conflated with those of the trans communities you would accept their right to determine who they are.

I thought it was simply that you were unaware of how things had moved on.

I didn’t expect that when I asked you to please respect their viewpoint yous remind with a plain “No”.

No point then in continuing to try to explain.At least we know where we stand.

“Please respect”
“No”

Doodledog
In any event, as everyone else keeps saying - we don’t care if that happens. We’ve gone over and over the things that cause us concern, as well as the fact that ‘ordinary’ transpeople are not the issue.

Exactly! And why would we know any differently since those who you claim have been doing it don’t make it obvious that they are trans anymore than most women go into a toilet blatantly demonstrating that they are female.
I’ve said most to pre-empt VS et al posting that they know women who prance round in public toilets showing off their female parts.

But VS and others appear to say in effect, that TW who do cause problems should be accepted as freely.
This doesn’t make sense either to us reasonable people or to ordinary non-confrontational trans, who aren’t any happier about the damage done to their lives by having a negative spotlight shone on them.
To give a simple (though horrifying) examples of the spotlight, for those who don’t get what I mean;
When Sarah Everard was murdered by a policeman, it reflected on all police.
The death of Star Hobson put an unwarranted spotlight on same sex parents.

The actions of a few ill- intentioned trans and their vociferous supporters, and their determination to override women’s (AHF) rights, as we have been saying, reflects badly on the all other trans.

Mollygo I was very confused reading your comment because, I don't say that and I actually agree with you on a lot of issues but then I got to the end where I was reminded about why we are arguing.

"reflects badly on all trans"

Here is where I disagree, not what you have unfairly assigned to me.

We absolutely cannot discriminate against trans people in general due to the actions of a few. This has been repeated over and over in history and in other demographics as I have tried to highlight. This has happened primarily due to fear. Fear is understandable but often people suffer of it is misplaced

BTW, I dont think what happened to Sarah Everard reflects badly on all police. I think it highlights that police should be subject to the same scrutiny as everyone else when it comes to the law and they should have thorough safeguarding checks and training. Always.

VS I can understand you being confused, but it happens as you get older. Don’t worry. ?

FarNorth

^I remember people being uncomfortable about gay people in toilets and changing rooms^
Really? I don't.

Surely gay people were already there, whether you knew they were gay or not?
Unlike this situation, where male people are intruding into female-only places.

Oh come on FarNorth it really is part of the history of the gay community. Men who weren't to be trusted, in toilets with boys, in the army, in education anywhere in fact because they were regarded as predatory. If you didn't know about the bias and discrimination then you damn well ought to.

Molygo even stuck in bed with covid I have enough wits about me to point out when someone assigns thinking to me that isn't mine and is therefor an untruth.

It ultimately weakens your points in discussion, thankfully not everyone does that

VS
We absolutely cannot discriminate against trans people in general due to the actions of a few. This has been repeated over and over in history and in other demographics as I have tried to highlight. This has happened primarily due to fear. Fear is understandable but often people suffer of it is misplaced.
This should be true, but unfortunately, as Shakespeare puts it
The evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interrèd with their bones.
So the ill-intentioned actions of the few TW and their vociferous supporters is what hits the headlines and reflects on others.
Those causing the fear by their actions are responsible as much as the press for spreading it.

trisher I've actually heard that rhetoric quite recently about gay men being unsafe around boys and I didn't know whether to be livid or just burst into tears

VS, sooo sorry you’ve got Covid. Hope you soon recover with no long lasting after effects.
You said you were confused. I agreed it was OK for you to be so. I can’t do right evidently.

Mollygo

VS
We absolutely cannot discriminate against trans people in general due to the actions of a few. This has been repeated over and over in history and in other demographics as I have tried to highlight. This has happened primarily due to fear. Fear is understandable but often people suffer of it is misplaced.
This should be true, but unfortunately, as Shakespeare puts it
The evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interrèd with their bones.
So the ill-intentioned actions of the few TW and their vociferous supporters is what hits the headlines and reflects on others.
Those causing the fear by their actions are responsible as much as the press for spreading it.

Yes it should be true because it is true.

It's more than the press, its the people buying into those headlines, not actually reading the words inside, spreading fear like gossip and taking no responsibility when they are wrong

OMG VioletSky I do hope we aren't getting a backlash. I remember when teachers daren't admit they were gay and how great it was when they were able to come out. Mind Idon't see how it would work as a friend said to me, without the brotherhood education and the NHS would be sunk!

VioletSky

trisher I've actually heard that rhetoric quite recently about gay men being unsafe around boys and I didn't know whether to be livid or just burst into tears

They’d actually prefer you to do neither.

Gay men are perfectly capable of dealing with these issues.

They don’t need you to act as their saviour.

Mollygo

VS, sooo sorry you’ve got Covid. Hope you soon recover with no long lasting after effects.
You said you were confused. I agreed it was OK for you to be so. I can’t do right evidently.

Listen and I will tell you honestly...

This subject has people passionate....

This subject has people angry.....

This subject has people worried....

Confused....

Fearful....

Emotional.....

I get that, I really really do!

But we are all being honest so we don't need to assign people views that aren't there because opinions aren't sort of one side or the other and don't always allign that way (if that makes sense)

Covid, after 3 jabs is a bit worse than I expected but I think it's on its way out and I do plan to achieve some stuff today lol