Prince Louie going through THAT stage

Sorry, Joseanne. You got there first.

volver

Lived in France 30-odd years ago. Was very impressed by the fact that French children in restaurants were expected to sit properly at the table, and eat what the adults were eating.

Then we came back to the UK and it was like Armageddon. ?

Seeping statement, other than a very occasional visit to McDonalds not a scenario I have witnessed.

Germanshepherdsmum

Would anyone here be happy to be in, say, a restaurant where they might reasonably expect to enjoy a calm and pleasant time, and have a child behaving like Louis turn up at the next table shattering the peace?

Yes, a small child, who didn't seem to be making a noise but was pulling faces wouldn't bother me in the least. I wouldn't want a child running around, but as far as I could see Louis wasn't 'shattering the peace'.

I don't tend to go to deliberately 'child-friendly' restaurants, or go at times when children are still up and eating, though. If you (generic) go to Frankie & Benny's before 7.00, you can expect there to be children around, and young children don't always behave well.

Rules have changed their policy to no under 10s now GG13. I don't know why?

Lived in France 30-odd years ago. Was very impressed by the fact that French children in restaurants were expected to sit properly at the table, and eat what the adults were eating.

Then we came back to the UK and it was like Armageddon. ?

We took our children to so called posh/expensive restaurants all round the world, some with Michelin Stars including Rules (oldest restaurant in London). Our AC do the same as do we with the GC.

In December we went to an upmarket London Hotel for a family meal 9 Adults, 7 GC aged from 2 through to 13.

We were greeted by professional tutters and grimaces. I am pleased to say that the GC were far better behaved than a fair few adults that evening. They joked, laughed and the older ones definitely pulled funny faces at the younger ones.

The staff were efficient as you would expect, and complimented the children whilst apologising for the behaviour/noise of a couple of the other diners.

We designed ** with everyone in mind.

“ Please note for the consideration of our other guests we do not allow children under five years of age within the dining room “

Posh restaurant statement, seems reasonable.

Oh now, come on.

I have no idea how many children in the country are neurodivergent. But as I said above, I have limited tolerance for tantrums and disturbing people's days out, and "she could be neurodivergent" is not the first thing I think of. Well actually it probably is but it doesn't make me any more tolerant of having my day ruined...

Children who are not neurotypical that should say

Food is a very emotive issue.

Yes lots of the children I work with have complex difficulties around food so the wrong colour sausage would be quite stressful! I suspect I am not the right person to ask, I generally find the company of children who are neurotypical much more enjoyable than many neurotypical people I know.

*waiters not writers!

Galaxy

I imagine he would have behaved more appropriately at a restaurant. Having a meal as a child is very different to being asked to sit through tedious entertainment for hours.

Interestingly my DGC sit beautifully in the restaurant on the Brittany Ferries and anywhere in France, because the food is served in such an appetising manner and the writers engage them throughout the service.
Sitting for hours watching a load of random people walking around was a different matter, but I think I understand why Louis and co were included.

And if he didn't, as in the examples of badly behaved children on this thread?

Also on holiday....went to a restaurant, a child threw a short tantrum because her sausages were the wrong colour, or something...

Oo I love a foodie discussion Germanshepherdsmum!

It depends on the restaurant. If I were in the likes of Zizzi's or Franke & Benny's then I would probably expect noisy, excitable kids to go with the territory. I did ask to be moved in a Selfridges restaurant once because the little tikes at the next table were dropping food all around us. (I was given a free glass of wine!)
If I were at Mere, Rules or Le Gavroche (you get the picture), then I would be very unhappy. Luckily, I think most parents have their heads screwed on as to which dining establishments suit their kids.

I work in a classroom of 4 year olds and see this type of behaviour every day. He's expressing himself in his own little way and personally I think he's a delightful little character.

I imagine he would have behaved more appropriately at a restaurant. Having a meal as a child is very different to being asked to sit through tedious entertainment for hours.

Would anyone here be happy to be in, say, a restaurant where they might reasonably expect to enjoy a calm and pleasant time, and have a child behaving like Louis turn up at the next table shattering the peace?

For the record, I don't think that either Tarquin or Ariadne was neurodivergent (although I don't know, and it was certainly the case that their parents were oblivious to social cues from other people). They were simply too young to be there, their parents seemed to see themselves and their children as 'special cases' and their behaviour spoilt the experience for others.

Every time my boys were sitting still or quiet, I used to wonder what was wrong!! I don't think my grandsons ever sit still when they are talking to me, they walk around!
The royal children are lovely and it was a long concert for a little one. It was great to see all the royal children throughout the celebrations.

Username ...

You've given me an idea, volver. I will change my used name to Childcatcher. I've had too many outings ruined by other people's noisy little darlings.

volver

This is an interesting discussion.

How far should we go? Should I be expected to forego the interesting trip that I had been looking forward to for a couple of weeks and paid good money for, because a group of children want to scream and run around in a noisy and intrusive way? And the adult with them is unable to do anything about it? Do you think all of 10 or so of them were neurodivergent?

Ten children with one adult is not a successful ratio, unless the adult is trained and/or experienced in handling them. With children you have to deal with each case of over-excitement (euphemism alert) separately and calm down the perpetrator, which doesn't work if the rest of them are also high as kites. That group should have had at least two other adults, and they should have had some experience of children en masse, preferably with the same children that they were supervising, so that they knew in advance which individuals would need most calming.

Josanne's colleague has hit it on the nail about there being a "family clown" usually a boy and/or the youngest child, but not always. The more he is rebuked, the worse he gets, and punishments seem to run off him like water off a duck's back. It is as though being noticed for being bad is better than not being noticed at all - and he is often a child who is either ignored by his parents or over-shadowed by older or cleverer siblings, so misbehaving is his moment of attention. There is often a "class clown" too - the same description. We all know adults who have never outgrown the phase.

I don't know whether Louis fits this description or not, I haven't observed him for long enough, but I do imagine that the day of that concert must have been about the most exciting of his life. He must have been up early and travelled for ages. He'd been to Wales for Jubilee celebrations there, then back for the concert, with lots of noise and colour and pageantry, and thousands of people, and all his family present and enjoying the event, but there wasn't much in it that would interest a boy of 4. That was a long day for a small boy, and he must have been very tired. His attention span at that age just isn't enough to sit still for hours "being good" although he is tired and bored. No wonder he was restive.

I thought his mother was doing her best to keep him from exploding. "Uncle Mike" would have been better to keep out of it, or produce something to take his attention. He needed a distraction, not criticism. Someone could have had a colouring book and a packet of felt tips, and challenge him to colour a whole page without going over the lines with a prize if he succeeded, or produce an Ipad with some games on it.

volver

Well they're all adults now. But anyway.

In the situation I am describing, 10 or so children who were not obviously related (but could have been, admittedly) were making the venue unbearable for anybody but themselves. It wasn't a large venue. These were not people who wanted to be treated the same as anyone else, by wanting to use a footpath in a wheelchair for instance. So to make that comparison is unfair.

These were children running amok and ruining everyone else's day. Literally. It was impossible to see the attractions properly because of the large groups of screaming children.

Think I said this before, yesterday. With rights come responsibilities.

I'm not sure that this has anything to do with Louis' behaviour at the weekend (with which I have sympathy and blame the cameras for dwelling on it); but it is an interesting question in its own right.

When my two were little we went to Dynamic Earth in Edinburgh. Anyone who's been will know that you enter in a lift with other people, and stay with them as you move through the museum taking in eras from the Big Bang to the present day, and are guided around by a voice coming through individual headphones. In our group was a couple of those loud competitive parents with a pre-school age child and a toddler in a buggy - both clearly far too young for the venue (which I think is aimed at children of 7+ - the age was clearly signposted at the entrance though, so there was no excuse).

All the way round, the parents showed off their 'interaction' with the children 'Oh look, Tarquin! This is from the Palaeolithic era'! Tarquin spits out his dummy and reaches to his mum to indicate that he wants to get out of the buggy.

'Ariadne! Have you seen these igneous rocks? Ariadne!!! Ariadne reaches behind the cushion in the buggy for the chocolate bar her mum thinks she's hidden, and runs off, shrieking. None of them used the headphones - presumably they thought they were too knowledgeable to need a guide.

This went on for the whole 45 minutes we were there, and there was no real escape without leaving the venue. The parents brayed their observations to their bored and disengaged children who were far too young to learn anything from the experience, and were a right royal pain in the bum. Our children, and others of a similar (and more suitable) age, couldn't hear the guide through their headphones.

The trip finished in a planetarium. You lie down and look up at constellations, with a voiceover telling you what's what. My son was really interested in this, but none of us could hear, as Tarquin and Ariadne were running about between the patrons whilst their parents smiled indulgently, probably pleased to let them run off some energy before inflicting them on some other poor souls.

They ruined the experience for us, but there was nothing we could do, as there were no staff in the rooms. I've had a quick look, and in today's prices, entrance for two adults and two children costs £57. Under-fours like Ariadne and Tarquin are free, although why they were allowed in in the first place is beyond me.

I can't help thinking that parents should rid themselves of any ideas that their little dears are so much more advanced than 'normal children', and stick to the advertised age ranges. I've had theatre visits ruined by having my seat kicked by a child in the seat behind who is far too young for the performance. Yes, babysitters might be hard to find, but that really is on the parent, and not a problem for others in the audience to deal with.

When it comes to the disabled or neurodivergent I have mixed feelings. Some venues have days when they are open specially for them to visit, and I think that's a good idea; but I know that whereas some neurodivergent people are very noisy, others hate noise, so it's not going to be a catch-all solution.

Because those are descriptive words for how they were behaving.

One can be descriptive without being riled.