Church of England -why aren't you asking 'What is a Man?'

Sorry - the 'We shouldn't' was about being compelled to believe in gender.

The tide is turning Doodledog; Stonewall losing to MF has not only cost them financially (yet to be decided) but has turned a public spotlight on them that has revealed that they're not at all inclusive to women and lesbians and more every day people are asking questions and raising their doubts. Perhaps if they'd been less aggressive and violent towards women, they'd have achieved more acceptance. They underestimated women.

Doodledog

We shouldn't.

And now we are legally allowed not to?. The trouble is that peer pressure can be powerful for younger people who can't afford to be pushed out of a job.

Please could you explain this. Peer pressure to do what?

To declare their 'gender pronouns' whether they believe in gender, or whether they want their 'gender' to be declared to the world.

Trans rights are mens rights. Only a man can be a trans woman

It is all just another attempt to subjugate women and some are falling for it.

Beyond ridiculous - DH got a letter today from an organisation which which he has an ISA. He can apply to have his title changed to "Mx" if he doesn't want his gender to be specified! Wouldn't it be easier just to get rid of titles at all, and use initials if first names are a problem?

(Of course as a duchess in my own right I wouldn't dream of getting rid of my title.)

And whilst we're tripping over ourselves to be "inclusive" with pronouns Wheniwasyourage; a rape survivor is having to deal with this from a TRA:

^On June 28, the Daily Mail reported that a UK woman is suing the UK Survivors' Network for indirect discrimination after they allowed a trans identified male to attend a support group for female victims of male sexual violence. The woman, clearly suffering from post traumatic stress disorder, had a panic attack triggered by the man's presence in what she thought was a safe space.
In response to this news, Leena van Deventer tweeted that this woman - a survivor of child sexual abuse and rape - "should be spat on at every opportunity". She went on to wish death upon the woman and slurred her as a "shitheel".^

This link is the rape victim's story: thecritic.co.uk/spaces-of-our-own/

It's worth noting that that is current news, not 5 or 6 years old.

Thanks for that link Chewbacca. It’s amazing that the misogyny and discrimination in ridiculous appointment of Mridul Wadhwa is still being supported now.

The irony is that Leena van Decanter promotes herself as "a truly all inclusive feminist who embraces all women". Her website states: Our vision Full gender equality = a world where women, girls, and gender diverse people take up all of life’s opportunities with respect, safety and dignity. I'm not sure where that sits with telling a rape survivor that she should be spat on at every opportunity, wish her dead and call her a TERF and a "shitheel".

Maybe she was being kind.

Wheniwasyourage

Beyond ridiculous - DH got a letter today from an organisation which which he has an ISA. He can apply to have his title changed to "Mx" if he doesn't want his gender to be specified! Wouldn't it be easier just to get rid of titles at all, and use initials if first names are a problem?

(Of course as a duchess in my own right I wouldn't dream of getting rid of my title.)

I would be very happy to get rid of titles (maybe not if I shared yours, Duchess WIWYA, but I'm not happy to declare pronouns. They are two different things, but I suppose using a title is similar to declaring a pronoun.

Mrs Ariadne Bloggs (he/him) sounds odd, and for the very traditional, Mrs David Bloggs (she/her) is odd too.

Most workplaces I know just use 'given name/surname' on email, as it differentiates between John, Josephine and Jillian Smith, and cuts down on the need for numbers and so on to help the system tell them apart. It also reduces the amount of personal information that people know about female members of staff. Men, of course, don't have their marital status explicit in their titles. Professional titles such as Dr, Professor or The Reverend Canon are often used for work emails - isn't that enough information? Asking people to declare pronouns is asking for personal information, and also asking for buy-in to a philosophy which many don't share.

If anyone can explain why it might be necessary, I would be interested to hear their thoughts.

When they want to remain intact as men and be in changing rooms with teenage girls, or share hospital wards with old ladies however, I think it's different.

Similarly, when they want to compete against women in sport, or to be sent to women's jails after offending as men, I take exception.

Transwomen may have been doing those things, after getting a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria & a gender recognition certificate.
However, now, all men who wish to do so are being allowed to do those things simply by saying 'I identify as a woman.'
The law hasn't changed but everyone is acting as though it has (hullo CofE!) because of misrepresentation from Stonewall.

That means, of course, that the risks have increased hugely because (get this VioletSky) although not all transwomen are a risk, the category of 'transwoman' has become much more of a risk to women because any man at all can now identify as a transwoman.

Precisely the problem FarNorth; any man at all.

From an article by transwoman Debbie Hayton:

"In 2018, the BBC Reality Check team found that 48 per cent of transgender offenders were serving time for a sexual offence (the figure for the general prison population is just 19 per cent). This is not a group that should be housed with women."

www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/resources/prison-service-needs-work-facts-not-fiction

Biscuitmuncher

Trans rights are mens rights. Only a man can be a trans woman

... this.

And if trans men really do identify as women, they are acknowledging that women exist, as a sex.

Further, if they understood womanhood, they would also grasp the need, for those who have been the victims of sexual assault by men, for safe spaces.

Perhaps the ones we never hear from, because they are not demanding, not aggressive, not threatening, are those that really do identify as women - because they understand what being a woman means in this context?

The aggressive trans woman making death and rape threats is simply a predatory male in disguise.

The aggressive trans woman making death and rape threats is simply a predatory male in disguise.

Absolutely right Dickens, it's been repeatedly said on these threads that their is NO ISSUE with every day trans women but that just isn't being understood or accepted by some TRA's and their allies. Similarly, it isn't being understood or accepted that when it comes to a rape survivor being wished dead, called transphobic and a TERF, simply because she's traumatised by the very sex who raped her and doesn't feel safe being in a counselling group with them, then it seems like pointing out the bleedin' obvious that resentment, anger and resentment will build. And it has.

Great letter in today's Daily Mail saying so the Church of England cannot say what a Woman is, I don't Adam and Eve it. Brilliant!

Judy54

Judy54

Great letter in today's Daily Mail saying so the Church of England cannot say what a Woman is, I don't Adam and Eve it. Brilliant!

?

I caught a bit of the Jeremy Vine TV show earlier, and they were asking about sex neutral toilets. That may not be quite the right expression (I was half listening as I cleaned the room), but they definitely used 'sex', not 'gender'. They also showed a headline saying that 98% of the public do not approve of them, and everyone on the panel agreed. Given that the panel is chosen to represent both ends of the political spectrum, that seems pretty much unanimous.

I can't be more precise, as I was busy when it was on, but if anyone doubts me, it will be on My5 - it was in the first part of the show.

Doodledog, you said ‘I caught a bit of the Jeremy Vine TV show earlier, and they were asking about sex neutral toilets. That may not be quite the right expression (I was half listening as I cleaned the room), but they definitely used 'sex', not 'gender'. They also showed a headline saying that 98% of the public do not approve of them, and everyone on the panel agreed. Given that the panel is chosen to represent both ends of the political spectrum, that seems pretty much unanimous.’

The toilets in my home are sex/gender neutral. I don’t have a problem with that at all. Do people really have separate men’s and women’s toilets in their homes? And if not, what exactly is the objection? I can see a case where we’re talking about a suite of loos behind a single door with just partitions between them, but in general a loo behind a door is a loo behind a door, and the anatomy of the person who uses it when the door is closed is neither here nor there.

You want to walk past a row of urinals in use when you go to the loo then, geekesse? Do you think the men using them would enjoy your doing so? Nobody is talking about toilets in houses here. It's public loos which are the issue, and already it's difficult enough to get enough space for women's toilets in many places without filling them up with men too.

I don't know anyone with single sex loos in their houses, but neither do I know anyone who lets random strangers in to use the facilities. The scenarios are very different, as I'm sure you know.

A friend of mine was sexually assaulted (badly - it was attempted rape) in the Ladies of a bar many years ago. Fortunately someone had seen him lurking outside, raised the alarm and he was caught. If he had been allowed in there legitimately nobody would have found it suspicious and who knows what would have happened. The loos were round the corner from the main bar area, music was playing and it was noisy. My friend wouldn't have stood a chance.

Yes, it was a man who did this, bit a transwoman, but the fact that anyone can say they are a woman makes this sort of thing more likely, and more difficult to prevent.

geekesse do you have strange men coming into your house to use the toilet? Only my husband and son use mine. I've read some nonsense in my life but your comment takes some beating

If someone in your own home leaves splashes of urine on the seat it is easy to pin down the culprit and make him clean it up.