Church of England -why aren't you asking 'What is a Man?'

There is no need to change all the toilets. Just keep them as single sex toilets and have ONE gender neutral toilet. There won't be a queue of transgender people waiting to use it because 99% of people are either male or female. Such a fuss about nothing.

I can see a case where we’re talking about a suite of loos behind a single door with just partitions between them

That's exactly what we are talking about geekesse. Don't tell me you didn't realise that.
Single toilets, with sink included, such as most people have in their homes, would be an improvement except for the mess that men often leave.

Indeed Chestnut.
Provision of one, or more, single-cubicle sex-neutral toilets would no doubt be welcome to women as well as trans people.

Some public toilets have never been safe. Aged about 10 I went into the toilets in the park near where I lived. A man was in there just standing with a cigarette. He smiled at me and I ran as fast as I could home. I was in trouble when I told my mum who had warned me about not using those toilets as they were in a quiet part of the park.
If the person in there had been dressed as a woman I would have gone in as I thought women were safe.

Ilovecheese

If someone in your own home leaves splashes of urine on the seat it is easy to pin down the culprit and make him clean it up.

Indeed.
I once told off my young son for making a mess on the bathroom floor. He blamed his sister.
I said she'd have to have been doing acrobatics while peeing and I was sure it was him.
He exclaimed "Right! I'll be making sure I pee right into the toilet every time so if there's another mess I'll know it's HER!"

And that worked!

Chestnut

There is no need to change all the toilets. Just keep them as single sex toilets and have ONE gender neutral toilet. There won't be a queue of transgender people waiting to use it because 99% of people are either male or female. Such a fuss about nothing.

The trouble is that buildings aren't set up like that. They have Ladies' and Gents', and to build a new set would be costly and in many cases impossible because of the plumbing and space issues.

What happens then is that the Ladies' becomes 'gender-neutral', as there are no urinals, and the Gents' stay as they are. This means that women have to wait far longer to use them, some women just won't (and whether anyone on here thinks that is ridiculous or not, it is what happens). Men are quite happy to use the nearest to their office, or whichever they are passing when caught short, and however well-meaning they are, their presence embarrasses young women who may be on their period and want privacy - who is going deal with a Mooncup or wash hands with blood on them after changing a tampon when Brian from accounts is at the next sink squeezing a blackhead? Also, men pee on the floor. Even at school the boys' toilets smelt vile when you passed them in the corridor.

Crikey not the toilets in my house are single sex thing. I cant believe people cant see the difference. I actually think toilets could be resolved relatively easily it is the issue of prisons sport refuges etc which are more problematic. I have no idea about the stats for toilets but if you take something like changing rooms the incidence of assaults in mixed sex changing rooms is higher that those in single sex ones.

I agree that toilets are often less of an issue than prisons or changing rooms, but because of what happened to my friend I remain unconvinced that making them unisex is a good idea.

Also, everyone needs to use them. Most people don't go to jail (not that this is a reason to forget the issue) and only go to hospital now and again, so whilst it may seem less important than dealing with prisons or hospitals to keep toilets separate, it affects far more people in the ways I've just described.

I agree I dont think unisex is a good idea unless they are enclosed single cubicles which of course is expensive, I would have no problem with unisex and single sex. The thing I worry about is it sort of always gets dragged back to toilets and that is used against women, and people make light of the removal of single sex spaces. Aaargh I am not explaining that very well

They use toilets as 'but we just want to wee' and that trivialises the fundamental issues with the removal of sex as a protected characteristic.

Biscuitmuncher

geekesse do you have strange men coming into your house to use the toilet? Only my husband and son use mine. I've read some nonsense in my life but your comment takes some beating

... quite.

The comparison is absurd!

We are talking about public toilets and facilities.

I suspect geekesse knows the members of her family who are using the loo, quite well .

I'd not like to be in a unisex hospital ward either. Some hospital wards are like a mainline station with all manner of strangers visiting whenever they like completely unsupervised by whoever is supposed to be in charge.

"In charge" reminds me of the good old days when a nice attendant sat in her office within the toilets supervising and ensuring they were clean and comfortable.

Goodness, people here do have a thing about differences between men and women, don’t they? There seems to be an underlying assumption that all men are in some way dangerous, or that putting men and women in the same space is odd or peculiar in some way. I mean, I value my privacy and dignity as much as the next person, but if that dignity is compromised in some way, say by personal care in a hospital ward, I can’s see that the sex of the person who sees a bare bum or a bit too much flesh matters much.

I can see that someone who has been abused by a person of the other sex may have a problem with mixed sex spaces, but as for the rest of us? I’ve been married, had children of both sexes, shared changing rooms and done personal care as a nurse, and I’ve seen enough human flesh not to be shocked. Have you all had much more sheltered lives or something?

It's rurned into quite the conspiracy theory

Then you've been very fortunate geekesse, thousand of women haven't been so lucky. Maybe spare a thought for:

The women who've been raped or sexually assaulted and need a female only space to be counselled and recover, and where they won't feel threatened or intimidated by the presence of a biological male, but are told that they must first address their transphobia.
The women and children who have suffered years of domestic violence at the hands of their male partner and now need the safety and sanctuary of a female only safe space but are now told that they must share that safe house with a biological male.
The women with mental, emotional and psychological problems who are locked up in a prison cell for 20 hours a day and, because of their problems are extremely vulnerable. They don't need their vulnerabilities exacerbated by being incarcerated with a biological male who is in the same cell as her and "presents as a lady".
The women who, from personal choice, don't feel as comfortable as you sharing a hospital ward, changing room, public lavatory with a biological male - no matter how he's dressed or what he calls himself.
The women who would prefer that intimate physical examinations are carried out by a female practitioner and not by a biological male who "has the soul of a woman".
The women who have trained for years to be the very best they can be in their field of sport, only to have their chance of winning taken away by a biological male, who's been through full puberty, has 37% more muscle mass, is bigger, taller, broader and stronger and so can run, ride, swim, cycle faster than any woman, but has decided, after failing to compete successfully as a man, he's now entering competitions as a woman.
The women who prefer to only have sex with other women but are now being physically and verbally abused and told that they're "transphobic TERFs" because they won't have sex with a biological male who says he has a "lady dick".
The women who want to meet other women to discuss feminine issues, such as FGM, forced marriage and abortion, but can't because gangs of angry biological males who "identify as women" demand to be allowed to join them and become violent, threatening and abusive to such an extent that the women have to be given safe escort by the police.
The women who, due to physical or mental disabilities, can perform no personal hygiene tasks independently and don't want a biological male to undress them, wash them, toilet them or change their menstrual sanitary wear.

See how lucky you've been?

Excellent post, Chewbacca.

geekesse, can you see how dismissive, narrow-minded and patronising your post is? Just because you 'can't see' how many women feel, then it is an over-reaction?

I don't think that it's those who are arguing for single-sex spaces who seem to have had sheltered lives, quite honestly. It's those who can't see beyond their own limited experiences.

Ooh the sheltered lives thing, never heard that before. Women are allowed to have boundaries. The contempt for women is beyond belief. Single sex spaces are enshrined in law for many reasons. Safety privacy etc. 97 % of violent sexual crimes are committed by men and this is reduced down to women having sheltered lives. Appalling.

I am an adult human female, aka a woman, NOT a "cis woman."

grannysyb

I am an adult human female, aka a woman, NOT a "cis woman."

Me neither, but I could almost get over my dislike if the word if every TW had to label themselves transwoman instead of being allowed to misappropriate the word which means adult human female.
Just read that Liar Thomas, fully intact male, is being nominated as woman swimmer of the year. If the nomination was for transwoman swimmer if the year . . . it would be more accurate, though that would mean having competed against other transwomen competitive swimmers and since there aren’t that many around. . .
Mind you, that is in a country where an ectopic pregnancy means you should be left to die rather than be allowed an abortion.

Nah MollyGo, surely that's just another part of the conspiracy theory!

So geekesse it seems that your stance is "Transwomen are not women, they are men but who cares."

I believe most people do care, if they think of it like that and don't allow themselves to be led astray by claims that transwomen are women or have 'become female'.

FarNorth

So geekesse it seems that your stance is "Transwomen are not women, they are men but who cares."

I believe most people do care, if they think of it like that and don't allow themselves to be led astray by claims that transwomen are women or have 'become female'.

What nonsense. I think no such thing. It’s absolutely none of my business whether trans women are women or not.

Oh, and Chewbacca, you have no idea what my life experiences have been, and I’m not sharing them here, but I can assure you that I have not lived the sheltered life you seem to attribute to me in your rant above.

Er you made the accusations of sheltered lives so people are probably going to respond to it.

You know how women and girls are constantly told to be alert to possible danger from men?
That's the opposite of being 'sheltered' and it is said for good reason.
Yet suddenly men can call themselves women and we are supposed to forget all that.

A question I saw recently - Why would a predatory male choose not to make use of self-id of sex in order to access vulnerable people?

I neither know, nor care, what your lived experiences are geekesse; I'm concerned only for the women who, for a whole myriad of reasons, do not want a biological male in their space and are inexorably losing their right to have that choice. As Galaxy points out, they've not led a "sheltered life;" they've lived through some of the most horrific life experiences a woman can have and it's interesting, that having 9 of those examples laid out for you to see, is interpreted by you as a rant.