ABC Pride book from Dorling Kindersley, for young children

I think I’ve posted before that my nephew talked about when he was a monkey after learning about evolution. I think he was about five - he was at school anyway. They are too young at that age to comprehend concepts such as ‘gender’. Adults can’t agree on a definition, much less very young children. All they need is to know that their parents or carers, in whatever shape, size or form, are there for them.

icanhandthemback
If we can present that some people feel they are too fat even though they aren't or they feel love or any other feelings, which we do as being legitimate , then the feeling that you are in the wrong body is legitimate too.

Exactly.
We accept that people feel those things but they may be wrong and we don't all have to believe the same as they do.

Incidentally anyone who has worked in education knows the process of referral for any teaching assistant.
Thank you Glorianny, being a teacher I obviously know how TAs work but VS mentioned children concerned about puberty changes. I asked how VS would deal with the situation she mentioned with body concerns of older girls who didn’t think they were the wrong sex, simply were unhappy about their early and future development compared to the rest of their class. VS mentioned referring them on and I asked on to whom? And what she would say to them about the referral if they asked. Since our DSL is male, that would be a further concern to preteens-which is why they come to me in the first place. He can’t be the only male DSL in a school.

GagaJo

My DGS doesn't know if he wants to be a boy or a girl. He wants to grow a baby in his tummy. He thinks he has a choice of gender. As he does.

We're pretty sure he's all boy. But if not, fair enough.

I think the book is ok. Other than the upper case letters. That's confusing for early letter identification.

A choice of gender, yes but sex, no. Have you told him the truth he will never be able to grow a baby in his tummy because he's the wrong sex and doesn't have a uterus? (your DGS is about 4 or 5 I think so obviously the wording will be simpler, he doesn't have the special place where babies grow??) Although I wouldn't be making a big deal of his inability (probably couch it in he can help 'plant' a baby in a woman's tummy) I also wouldn't be letting him think that he can grow a baby in his tummy, as that's a lie outside of the league of the Tooth Fairy or Father Christmas.

With regard to the born in the wrong body statements, this is not used anymore and it was recognised that it was a mistake to tell young people that their body was wrong in some way.

GS knows he has the seeds that go into the egg. Interesting scene the other morning when I found him examining his bits, looking for the seeds ?.

Allsorts

I feel it totally wrong. Just who are these people who think children don’t need a childhood. Who decides this is normal?Parents should not have to put up with this imposed on a child. I would stage a protest. Move schools anything to prevent it.

I totally agree that children need to have a childhoods, and to enjoy that time. It is a time of learning and discovery and experimenting. Those who think it is any sort of protection to hide any knowledge from those questioning - whatever theri age - are doing them a very grave disservice.

So, we do not wish to traumatise children with talks about road traffic accidents. Ensure they never ever go near a road or a vehicle until they are (what?) teenagers?? It is the same sort of silly logic as saying do not talk about gender in any way

Glorianny

Galaxy

The thing I wish about books aimed at children is that they would think more carefully about the 'be kind' phrase it's so meaningless and usually aimed at girls more than boys. Everyone has a different concept of kindness, some of the kindest things that have been done to me were absolutely awful to experience.

I really hope it isn't aimed more at girls Galaxy Kindness is a concept that boys need to learn. I think it is used as a more positive way of addressing aggression. just saying Don't push or don't hit is seen as being negative.

The motto of an expensive boys’ prep school very near here, emblazoned on the notice board at the entrance, is, ‘Smart, Skilful and Kind.’

DGS is entreated to be kind, have kind hands, treat his friends kindly daily (he's inclined to be a bit rough unfortunately) at school. He knows exactly what it means.

Smart skilful and kind and “be kind” as used to your DGS is different from the instruction to ‘be kind’ as it is used when trying to shut down women who want safe spaces from males, no cheating by males in female competitions et al.
If you read my earlier post about the ball situation, would you have told Child B to “be kind” and swap the red ball because child A wanted it? I’d be really interested to know.

I try and avoid it because it us very vague and many adults would disagree on what it means.

I was talking about be kind but it also applies to the concept of gender. Many schools use material from transgender trend which takes a different approach.

Franbern Hullo again.
You say Those who think it is any sort of protection to hide any knowledge from those questioning - whatever their age - are doing them a very grave disservice.

It depends on what the knowledge is, and how it is explained.

Can you answer the question I asked earlier in this thread - what difference is discernible between a trans child, of primary age, and a child who simply has preferences for non-stereotypical interests, clothes etc?
(I ask because you said you had seen children where 'their propensities' were clear.)

GagaJo what do you mean by 'all boy' in relation to your grandson?

It is sometimes very clear in primary aged children.

Trans people are born trans according to the scientific data we have so far (which I posted early in the thread)

So the best way forward is to listen and validate their feelings because mental health issues caused by gender dysphoria are hugely detrimental

Being trans is not a choice

VS the Cass report is not saying that about validation. Watchful waiting is the approach used in other countries now.

Listen, absolutely and listen without aligning what you hear with your own stance. Validate-depends which version of the word you mean; I prefer to use value. However, it has certainly been shown that mental health and physical health caused by treatments of gender dysphoria are certainly hugely detrimental.

Many schools use a very different approach to that which you are suggesting.

By validate I mean acknowledge that someone has those feelings and is genuinely struggling with them.

Invalidating would look like:

You shouldn't feel that way

You don't know what you are saying

You are too young to worry about this

Etc

"Wothout alligning what you hear with your own stance"

My stance is children who are treated with respect as individuals.

It's very dangerous and dismissive to assume I would ever push my own stance on child.

That is the opposite of what education is and I am very good at educating on any topic without pushing my own stance.

That's my job.

Yes that sounds very like the watchful waiting stance, I think when the full Cass report is published there will be more clarity about social transition i.e the use of pronouns etc. I think the we need to be very careful with young people as much of the information that has been provided in the past 'wrong body' etc has not been helpful. I need to read more but the information coming out about puberty blockers also appears to contradict previous claims.

I'm not opposed at all to finding the best way forward for children.

I have never personally advocated for puberty blockers or any such treatment.

I would much rather leave that to the medically trained..

I do think that interventions should be reversible up to a certain age but I don't know what that age is.

I can see how puberty can change a body in ways that may mean struggle later on or surgery that carries risks

But the flip side is that if children come forward at primary school age having been given the tools to understand their own feelings... that means therapy can start earlier and time can be given to ensure the right choice of treatment is made

Oh dear VS. I didn’t assume anything, though it seems you are assuming I did.
Knowing not to use what you think/your stance, is a part of not asking leading questions that comes into all safeguarding training and that also applies to listening to children who, for whatever reason puberty, early body development or potential gender dysphoria, are unhappy with their bodies.
That’s my job (in addition to teaching).

But you see that is why many of us are wary. Because I could show thousands of claims on Twitter and other websites by people saying 'puberty blockers are reversible' , and well it's looking as if that might not be the case. It was one of the mantras and it may have done harm.

VS Trans people are born trans according to the scientific data we have so far (which I posted early in the thread)

Do you mean that study you linked to on another thread? I did read it. It was very woolly, nothing definitive at all, just a lot of speculation and littered with 'may' this 'may' that. It had a tiny sample number and had not been subjected to peer review, so hardly an authoritative paper. It made me think of the discredited study published in the Lancet by Dr Andrew Wakefield and pals which asserted a link between vaccination and autism.