ABC Pride book from Dorling Kindersley, for young children

They did a recent trawl of clothing recently (I realise that's not education) and all the be kind stuff was in the 'girls department' and the 'climb a mountain' stuff was in the 'boys department'

Positive... walk please

Negative... no running

My GD hates most of the clothes in the girl's sections. Pink (which she loved at two) is the colour of hell. She bought a boy's sweatshirt because she liked the colour.
I don't know who the clothes industry is catering for.

Galaxy

Oh a fish wife joke. You see some might think that was kind whereas others would just think it was sexism.

Or some may think it was self-referential / deprecating humour.

Glorianny

My GD hates most of the clothes in the girl's sections. Pink (which she loved at two) is the colour of hell. She bought a boy's sweatshirt because she liked the colour.
I don't know who the clothes industry is catering for.

Whereas, for DGS, we often shop in the girls section. Because otherwise he's stuck in sports / super heroed stuff. Neither of which interest him. He looks gorgeous in ice cream pastels.

Glorianny

Wow the support for other women on these threads always overwhelms me.
It is of course support for women in the abstract. Real women can be subjected to all sorts of treatment. It demonstrates the prejudice at the heart of some. Such antagonism! And you claim to be feminists.

Is this an abstract snipe, or are you getting at someone in particular? Again, it is really difficult to respond to vagaries without making assumptions about what is being said to whom, and leaving oneself open to accusations of, well, making assumptions. 'Some people', 'the gender-critical' and so on is meaningless, and leads to ill-feeling and misunderstanding, as are sweeping statements like this one, which are clearly 'not in the spirit of GN', but don't mean anything concrete.

Speaking of 'Be Kind' I agree with whoever said it is used to silence women. It's grabbing the moral high ground and pushing anyone who disagrees into the category of 'the unkind', which is manipulative and gaslighting. A bit like 'and you claim to be feminists'. We haven't heard that one for a while, but it's depressingly familiar, as it used to be heard such a lot on these threads. It's the same strategy - grab a positive term for yourself, so that anyone who disagrees is immediately 'othered'. Not kind at all, really .

Doodledog

Glorianny

Wow the support for other women on these threads always overwhelms me.
It is of course support for women in the abstract. Real women can be subjected to all sorts of treatment. It demonstrates the prejudice at the heart of some. Such antagonism! And you claim to be feminists.

Is this an abstract snipe, or are you getting at someone in particular? Again, it is really difficult to respond to vagaries without making assumptions about what is being said to whom, and leaving oneself open to accusations of, well, making assumptions. 'Some people', 'the gender-critical' and so on is meaningless, and leads to ill-feeling and misunderstanding, as are sweeping statements like this one, which are clearly 'not in the spirit of GN', but don't mean anything concrete.

Speaking of 'Be Kind' I agree with whoever said it is used to silence women. It's grabbing the moral high ground and pushing anyone who disagrees into the category of 'the unkind', which is manipulative and gaslighting. A bit like 'and you claim to be feminists'. We haven't heard that one for a while, but it's depressingly familiar, as it used to be heard such a lot on these threads. It's the same strategy - grab a positive term for yourself, so that anyone who disagrees is immediately 'othered'. Not kind at all, really .

Well I suppose if the cap fits.....
I haven't grabbed anything or indeed claimed anything unlike some on this and many other threads. Nor am I silencing anyone. I'm just posting comments which I believe is permitted.
Even if they are about fish wives who are a much maligned section of society and independent, hard working women.

DD, you make a good point. Mostly I find that those who use ‘be kind’ most frequently in this and other topics are the least kind.
And it’s catching on.
On the last day of school I was on duty. Child A came over to me with a yellow ball, crying that child B was not ‘being kind’ to her. I asked her what she meant and she said, “ I wanted the red ball and he got it first and he won’t swap.”
Being kind for her meant the other child giving up what he had just to make her happy. Starting at 6?

The Dorling Kindersley ABC book wouldn't give me a problem as a parent of a young child as long as it just gives accurate information and isn't trying to do any more than that. I think it will be useful for children who come from families with less traditional parents but also will demystify things for all kids. Whilst I think there are issues around gender identity which need to be ironed out, it is a reality that some people feel they are in the wrong bodies and we should all be accepting that. If we educate children whilst they are young, perhaps there will be less intolerance for people who choose to transition. But yes, there should be a lower case ABC shown if these books are for children just starting out on their reading journey!

Yes to Makaton taught to all children as part and parcel of their education. Children with ASD can often communicate visually when words desert them because they are stressed. The deaf will benefit too. Two of my DIL's taught their babies Makaton from birth and their babies were able to communicate when they wanted feeding way before those without that skill. Quite frankly, it was amazing.

Glorianny

Incidentally anyone who has worked in education knows the process of referral for any teaching assistant. TA informs child's class teacher who decides if further action is needed.
As Mollygo has experience of education she should know how TAs work.

I also said I'd like to know the process and made clear that I had no idea because I am not (and never have been) in education.

Those sounded like a useful group of connected questions, to me .
I'd have no problem with it, if I was asked similar questions about something I do have knowledge of.

Can you blame me for wanting to make sure all my ducks were in a row and I gave a good understandable answer?

To make sure that it was understood just how important it is to get safeguarding right when children are at stake?

It matters to me

Unless my job or education is being questioned here?

Mollygo

DD, you make a good point. Mostly I find that those who use ‘be kind’ most frequently in this and other topics are the least kind.
And it’s catching on.
On the last day of school I was on duty. Child A came over to me with a yellow ball, crying that child B was not ‘being kind’ to her. I asked her what she meant and she said, “ I wanted the red ball and he got it first and he won’t swap.”
Being kind for her meant the other child giving up what he had just to make her happy. Starting at 6?

The number of misapprehensions children gather in the course of their school career is incredible. It doesn't mean the idea is wrong , just that they haven't understood. That's why the adult is there to explain things.
Strange you have such close contact with children Mollygo but don't understand the referral system. Aren't you aware that some behaviour has to be reported?

No, VS, If anything Glorianny is questioning Molly's professionalism again?.

I don't blame you for not wanting to give away anything identifying; but a generic answer wouldn't have done that, surely? GagaJo was able to answer without saying 'In Acacia Avenue High School in Mytown, we do A, then B and C, and if that fails we call in Mrs Mary Bloggs, the EdPsych'.

Glorianny you wrote I met children who would have benefited from this book. Their predelictions were obvious from an early age, having a book which was relevant to them could only have helped.

I assume you mean primary age children - the age group for this book being 3-5.

Please can you describe how such a child, who is likely to be trans, differs from a child who has interests & preferences which are not stereotypical for their sex?

Only adults are interested, not young children. I have a large family and I know at that age they would be bored to sobs with a book like that.

I can only apologise doodledog

But it was a specific situation on my mind and these things are delicate. I hope you understand.

nanna8

Only adults are interested, not young children. I have a large family and I know at that age they would be bored to sobs with a book like that.

Yes, I honestly can't see them understanding about mastectomy scars, or 'gender at birth' at the age of 3-5.

Something like Alex Goes To The Dentist, an age-appropriate story in which Alex's parents are trans would be more suitable - on the lines of the ones where the child has two mums or two dads - although goodness knows how the illustrations would work without being offensive on a number of levels.

VioletSky

I can only apologise doodledog

No need.

And yes, I understand. It's too easy to say something that would give away our location, or something that might make us identifiable.

I would have thought a lot of LGBTQ parents will be the ones buying this book or those with family members who may have scars etc

icanhandthemback you say it is a reality that some people feel they are in the wrong bodies and we should all be accepting that.

We can all accept that some people feel that way but we don't have to believe that it is actual fact that they are in the wrong body.
We also shouldn't present the 'wrong body' idea to children as if it is fact.

FarNorth

icanhandthemback you say it is a reality that some people feel they are in the wrong bodies and we should all be accepting that.

We can all accept that some people feel that way but we don't have to believe that it is actual fact that they are in the wrong body.
We also shouldn't present the 'wrong body' idea to children as if it is fact.

How would you determine they were or weren't in the "wrong body" as fact? The only thing you can present as fact is that they feel it is until there is some form of measure for it. Actually, there might be for all I know but I'm not very scientific! If we can present that some people feel they are too fat even though they aren't or they feel love or any other feelings, which we do as being legitimate , then the feeling that you are in the wrong body is legitimate too.

Children of three are only just past the age when they start to recognise that they are individuals, aren't they? Before that they see everyone as an extension of themselves. How are they supposed to understand 'gender' and whether or not they 'feel' that they need to 'change' theirs when they have just come to terms with the fact that they exist separately from their parents and siblings?

It doesn't compute for me at all.

My DGS doesn't know if he wants to be a boy or a girl. He wants to grow a baby in his tummy. He thinks he has a choice of gender. As he does.

We're pretty sure he's all boy. But if not, fair enough.

I think the book is ok. Other than the upper case letters. That's confusing for early letter identification.