Whatever happened to "saving for a rainy day"?

M0nica

Exactly what are overheads? They are the necessary costs of recruiting staff, undertaking all the checks needed for it to be safe to hire them, assessing anybody who needs care , preparing rosters, coping with crises that arise when carers are ill, preparing pay checks, ensuring standards are met, providing PPE and other materialspaying those doing all the 'overhead' experiences. It is not surprising that doing all these tasks account for half the hourly cost of a carer. What tasks should they leave out? Running all the safety checks? coping with crises? providing ppe?

I very much doubt whether an LA can do it any less expensively than a commercial care provider, the majority of which are not part of huge chains but local agencies run by one or two people, who generally earn not a lot more than their staff.

Then how does it cost well over £1000 a week for the average care home resident ? If the La provided direct care they wouldn’t have to worry about satisfying shareholders or other unnecessary overheads. Elderly and disabled people are routinely ripped off because they are not a priority - until there’s a squeeze on the economy as there is now, and then they are the first in line for cuts.

Casdon

It doesn’t cost that much. I just looked it up, according to Care UK the average weekly cost of living in a residential care home is £704, while the average nursing home cost is £888 per week across the UK.

But that doesn’t include specialist care. Our relative is in a care home which specialises in dementia care. It costs well over £1000 a week and when funding runs out a cheaper facility will be necessary, which won’t meet her needs. She is contributing over £1000 a month to LA funded residents, which reduces her funding pot by £60,000 if she lives five years, which reduces her funding for the care she needs by almost two years. Do you really think this is fair when the introduction of targeted taxation at rates that are affordable according to circumstances could provide proper care for all ?

The "unfairness" of the care system is much murkier than people with subsidising people without. If you need to be in a home with medical needs and you can jump through the hoops that the CHC system puts you through (with each local authority interpreting the rules differently) you can get all your care free regardless of savings. CHC has almost become impossible to get but in her area, the few people who have successfully applied are people who have professional qualifications and the ability to fight the system up to the Ombudsman.
I don't mind my mother having to pay for her care which is due to her medical needs if everybody has to if they have money. I do object to only those who have the wherewithal to fight to get their care fees paid despite their wealth. I also object to people who have had the same income/inheritance/lifetime earnings as her getting their care fees paid because they lived the life of Riley whilst she was taking care to provide for old age. I just don't think that is equitable but I don't know how you allow for it unless you tax for care at source so the money can't be frittered away.

Casdon

icanhandthemback

Casdon

It doesn’t cost that much. I just looked it up, according to Care UK the average weekly cost of living in a residential care home is £704, while the average nursing home cost is £888 per week across the UK.

I don't know where they get their figures from but everybody I have spoken to from different areas has said that Nursing Care is much higher than that. We pay £6200 at the moment but that is because Mum has a very small room. It will go up considerable if she goes into one where she can swing a cat.

If somebody meets the threshold for nursing care for 24 hours they are classified as an NHS patient, and paid for through Continuing Healthcare funding, so I’m guessing your mum doesn’t qualify for that, which is free for eligible people.
This seems a reliable source regarding care home fees.
www.carehome.co.uk/advice/care-home-fees-and-costs-how-much-do-you-pay

My mum is 91 and has vascular dementia, and now has a terminal diagnosis for advanced breast cancer. She needs 24 hour care but the NHS will not pay for continuing health care funding - they have lots of reasons for denying it and it’s an ongoing battle. It was only through MacMillan services that I discovered that she was eligible for free hospice care - all other sources said she had to pay for care. The information is out there but not easily accessed, which IMO is disgusting.

Pammie1, care home fees often don’t seem so excessive when you compare them to the cost of B&B in (say) a reasonable 3 star hotel or B&B locally.

Instead of just B&B, you have all meals and drinks, all laundry (often a lot, esp. if incontinence is involved), help with washing, dressing, and possibly ‘toileting’, as they like to call it, maybe with eating and drinking, not to mention often a higher than normal level of heating, and someone on hand 24 hours a day. And often sundry activities, too.

Witzend

*Pammie1*, care home fees often don’t seem so excessive when you compare them to the cost of B&B in (say) a reasonable 3 star hotel or B&B locally.

Instead of just B&B, you have all meals and drinks, all laundry (often a lot, esp. if incontinence is involved), help with washing, dressing, and possibly ‘toileting’, as they like to call it, maybe with eating and drinking, not to mention often a higher than normal level of heating, and someone on hand 24 hours a day. And often sundry activities, too.

I agree. But that still doesn’t excuse the fact that those who have the means to pay are subsidising those who can’t, when a simple targeted tax could ensure that the care is there for all when they need it.

Casdon

icanhandthemback

Casdon

It doesn’t cost that much. I just looked it up, according to Care UK the average weekly cost of living in a residential care home is £704, while the average nursing home cost is £888 per week across the UK.

I don't know where they get their figures from but everybody I have spoken to from different areas has said that Nursing Care is much higher than that. We pay £6200 at the moment but that is because Mum has a very small room. It will go up considerable if she goes into one where she can swing a cat.

If somebody meets the threshold for nursing care for 24 hours they are classified as an NHS patient, and paid for through Continuing Healthcare funding, so I’m guessing your mum doesn’t qualify for that, which is free for eligible people.
This seems a reliable source regarding care home fees.
www.carehome.co.uk/advice/care-home-fees-and-costs-how-much-do-you-pay

If you believe that to be the case, you are mistaken. The thresholds are moveable goal posts and eligibility is not clearly defined so it is difficult to fight your corner. Assessors break the rules all the time and I am sure they must be paid a bonus for turning down claims. The Nursing Home where my mother is now have people with full blown dementia who are unable to do anything for themselves and they are continually being turned down for CHC even though they should be entitled to it. They asked the assessor at what point they would pay it and basically they said within weeks of dying. It is an absolute travesty.

Witzend

*Pammie1*, care home fees often don’t seem so excessive when you compare them to the cost of B&B in (say) a reasonable 3 star hotel or B&B locally.

Instead of just B&B, you have all meals and drinks, all laundry (often a lot, esp. if incontinence is involved), help with washing, dressing, and possibly ‘toileting’, as they like to call it, maybe with eating and drinking, not to mention often a higher than normal level of heating, and someone on hand 24 hours a day. And often sundry activities, too.

So next time you are on holiday at a hotel, perhaps you could subsidise somebody in the hotel who can't really afford it.

icanhandthemback

Casdon

icanhandthemback

Casdon

It doesn’t cost that much. I just looked it up, according to Care UK the average weekly cost of living in a residential care home is £704, while the average nursing home cost is £888 per week across the UK.

I don't know where they get their figures from but everybody I have spoken to from different areas has said that Nursing Care is much higher than that. We pay £6200 at the moment but that is because Mum has a very small room. It will go up considerable if she goes into one where she can swing a cat.

If somebody meets the threshold for nursing care for 24 hours they are classified as an NHS patient, and paid for through Continuing Healthcare funding, so I’m guessing your mum doesn’t qualify for that, which is free for eligible people.
This seems a reliable source regarding care home fees.
www.carehome.co.uk/advice/care-home-fees-and-costs-how-much-do-you-pay

If you believe that to be the case, you are mistaken. The thresholds are moveable goal posts and eligibility is not clearly defined so it is difficult to fight your corner. Assessors break the rules all the time and I am sure they must be paid a bonus for turning down claims. The Nursing Home where my mother is now have people with full blown dementia who are unable to do anything for themselves and they are continually being turned down for CHC even though they should be entitled to it. They asked the assessor at what point they would pay it and basically they said within weeks of dying. It is an absolute travesty.

This. I was told mum had to have a terminal diagnosis before she would qualify for CHC. She now has one and they continue to find excuses not to fund it. It’s typical of the shit attitude in this country to the sick, the disabled and the elderly. There seems to be a never ending line of people ready to rip them off and no one cares. Shame on us.

icanhandthemback

Witzend

Pammie1, care home fees often don’t seem so excessive when you compare them to the cost of B&B in (say) a reasonable 3 star hotel or B&B locally.

Instead of just B&B, you have all meals and drinks, all laundry (often a lot, esp. if incontinence is involved), help with washing, dressing, and possibly ‘toileting’, as they like to call it, maybe with eating and drinking, not to mention often a higher than normal level of heating, and someone on hand 24 hours a day. And often sundry activities, too.

So next time you are on holiday at a hotel, perhaps you could subsidise somebody in the hotel who can't really afford it.

???

Pammie1

Casdon

It doesn’t cost that much. I just looked it up, according to Care UK the average weekly cost of living in a residential care home is £704, while the average nursing home cost is £888 per week across the UK.

But that doesn’t include specialist care. Our relative is in a care home which specialises in dementia care. It costs well over £1000 a week and when funding runs out a cheaper facility will be necessary, which won’t meet her needs. She is contributing over £1000 a month to LA funded residents, which reduces her funding pot by £60,000 if she lives five years, which reduces her funding for the care she needs by almost two years. Do you really think this is fair when the introduction of targeted taxation at rates that are affordable according to circumstances could provide proper care for all ?

I’m not saying it’s fair Pammiel, I’ve already said that it isn’t. A major review of the care system is needed.

Casdon

Pammie1

Casdon

It doesn’t cost that much. I just looked it up, according to Care UK the average weekly cost of living in a residential care home is £704, while the average nursing home cost is £888 per week across the UK.

But that doesn’t include specialist care. Our relative is in a care home which specialises in dementia care. It costs well over £1000 a week and when funding runs out a cheaper facility will be necessary, which won’t meet her needs. She is contributing over £1000 a month to LA funded residents, which reduces her funding pot by £60,000 if she lives five years, which reduces her funding for the care she needs by almost two years. Do you really think this is fair when the introduction of targeted taxation at rates that are affordable according to circumstances could provide proper care for all ?

I’m not saying it’s fair Pammiel, I’ve already said that it isn’t. A major review of the care system is needed.

I agree - but it won’t happen under the Tories. Too busy feathering their own nests !

icanhandthemback

The "unfairness" of the care system is much murkier than people with subsidising people without. If you need to be in a home with medical needs and you can jump through the hoops that the CHC system puts you through (with each local authority interpreting the rules differently) you can get all your care free regardless of savings. CHC has almost become impossible to get but in her area, the few people who have successfully applied are people who have professional qualifications and the ability to fight the system up to the Ombudsman.
I don't mind my mother having to pay for her care which is due to her medical needs if everybody has to if they have money. I do object to only those who have the wherewithal to fight to get their care fees paid despite their wealth. I also object to people who have had the same income/inheritance/lifetime earnings as her getting their care fees paid because they lived the life of Riley whilst she was taking care to provide for old age. I just don't think that is equitable but I don't know how you allow for it unless you tax for care at source so the money can't be frittered away.

Yes, the sharp-elbowed, those with clued-up solicitors, those who somehow hide their savings (no idea how, but still), and those who spend as they go all get free care, as well as the poor. The rich will often not need it, as they can pay for in-house care, or have enough of a cushion to spend without missing it, so it's Mr and Mrs Ordinary who lose out.

I think taxing at source (and not just PAYE, but any source of income) is a fair way of doing it. It's too late for we older lot, but an additional ring-fenced tax proportionate to income would mean that nobody had to worry about getting old and in need of care. I think only one in four of us need care, so as the cost would be borne by everyone it needn't be ruinous, and anyway it would be a progressive tax, meaning that higher earners would pay more.

Doodledog

icanhandthemback

The "unfairness" of the care system is much murkier than people with subsidising people without. If you need to be in a home with medical needs and you can jump through the hoops that the CHC system puts you through (with each local authority interpreting the rules differently) you can get all your care free regardless of savings. CHC has almost become impossible to get but in her area, the few people who have successfully applied are people who have professional qualifications and the ability to fight the system up to the Ombudsman.
I don't mind my mother having to pay for her care which is due to her medical needs if everybody has to if they have money. I do object to only those who have the wherewithal to fight to get their care fees paid despite their wealth. I also object to people who have had the same income/inheritance/lifetime earnings as her getting their care fees paid because they lived the life of Riley whilst she was taking care to provide for old age. I just don't think that is equitable but I don't know how you allow for it unless you tax for care at source so the money can't be frittered away.

Yes, the sharp-elbowed, those with clued-up solicitors, those who somehow hide their savings (no idea how, but still), and those who spend as they go all get free care, as well as the poor. The rich will often not need it, as they can pay for in-house care, or have enough of a cushion to spend without missing it, so it's Mr and Mrs Ordinary who lose out.

I think taxing at source (and not just PAYE, but any source of income) is a fair way of doing it. It's too late for we older lot, but an additional ring-fenced tax proportionate to income would mean that nobody had to worry about getting old and in need of care. I think only one in four of us need care, so as the cost would be borne by everyone it needn't be ruinous, and anyway it would be a progressive tax, meaning that higher earners would pay more.

Yep. This. All day long.

Doodledog

It can't cost £1600 a week to keep someone in a care home, can it? Particularly as medical care would be given in hospital where it is free at point of need. Yes, nursing costs are high, but we all know that care workers are shamefully underpaid, and most homes use carers rather than nurses. Even with gourmet food, trips out to exotic places and luxury accommodation £1600 a week to look after an old person must include a lot of profit.

Yes it does! And can be more in certain parts of the country especially if nursing care is needed.

My mum, in a not for profit care home, was paying £1100 a week and I’d just had a letter saying the fees were increasing by 10% to £1210.

I meant that it can’t cost the care home as much as that, not that people aren’t charged that sort of money, Teacheranne. There has to be a lot of profit being made, given the low wages of care staff.

volver

It was you who used the phrase people who haven’t made provision for themselves. Which to me suggests that you think there are people who haven't behaved as you would like them to.

Maybe somebody can explain this to me....

Apparently the nice homes accommodate people funded by the LA who didn't make provision for themselves. But people who can't pay for themselves get moved to other, not-so-nice homes.

It doesn't add up, does it? Both can't be true.

Some homes will accommodate residents at LA rates once their own funds run out, others won’t.

It’s a good idea to ask the care home when you are looking at it what their policy is about such situations. We did and that’s when we found out that Mum would not be evicted if her money ran out. Some care homes insist that new residents have at least two years of funding before they will admit them!

Casdon

It doesn’t cost that much. I just looked it up, according to Care UK the average weekly cost of living in a residential care home is £704, while the average nursing home cost is £888 per week across the UK.

Yes it does, my mum died two months ago and was paying £1100 a week to a care home which was run on a not for profit basis ie had no shareholders.

I could show you her bank statements if you don’t believe me! Care UK are quoting average costs across the country, mum was in a home here in the south part of Greater Manchester. Care homes in N Manchester or the NE are cheaper because property prices are lower, homes in the Home Counties or London are even more expensive.

Doodledog

I meant that it can’t cost the care home as much as that, not that people aren’t charged that sort of money, Teacheranne. There has to be a lot of profit being made, given the low wages of care staff.

Mum was in a not for profit home, no shareholders or owners wanting a profit so I think costs were probably kept to a minimum. But it was a nice place, well looked after, decent sized single rooms with an en-suite, higher staff ratios than required by the QCQ and staff paid the living wage with good benefits. Everything mum needed was provided, no extra costs for toiletries, special diets or incontinence pads etc.

Obviously the organisation made some profits but they were ploughed back into the homes which were regularly refurbished or updated.

Once again the costs of running a care home are enormous. the one my aunt and uncle were in had an almost 1: 1 resident to staff ratio. We were there when a fire practice took place.

As well as carers( there was a 24/7 roster, so there were always carers on dduty) there were: catering staff, laundry staff, gardeners, maintenance man, cleaners, two clerical staff, manager. There were also activity organisers who came in.

Then there are the costs of owning the building, mortgage interes and the like, the cost of getting builders, electricians, central heating maintenance and repair people in to make sure the building is in good order. There are furnishings and equipment for helping residents; bath lifts, specialist frames to help staff move people around in dignity, all of these also need regular servicing, then, of course there are supplies: food, cleaning materials, the cost of meeting regulatory standards, insurances of many kinds.

Living in care is in fact very expensive and if corners are cut the results can be catastrophic.

Try and imagine the cost of paying for everything in your own house, the carer to be always in the house 24/7, then a cleaner, sending all washing out to a laundry, a cook coming in to provide meals, the cost of having the house kept in good order by tradespeople;, no worn upholstery, proper hospital bed, all the necessary servicing done, specialised equipment to help you move around, have a bath and so on. All this would quickly take the cost of your care at home over £1,000 a week, oh, I forgot the gardener, hairdresser, activity organiser, who would drop in 2 or 3 afternoons a week.

I forgot to include rates and taxes.

It need not cost a massive amount at home if you have family to help, certainly not £1000 a week.
Father lived in his own annex, at the end 2 ladies shared the daytime caring, and did cooking and washing too, LA carers came in twice a day to help, then 2 sons shared nighttime caring
Worked well

Katie59 You have missed my point I was asking people to think about the costs of having the care you get in a care home, if you had it at home. No, of course no one at home would be buying in all that care and would probably have all sorts of care provided by family. But when complaining about care home costs you need to compare it with paying others to provide the same level of care at home, including home maintenance, fuel bills, home insurance etc etc.

I think the costs would be frighteningly similar.

Well if care were returned to LAs their figures would be audited and (presumably) available to the public. The charges would not include payments to shareholders or profits to business owners, so would save on those at least.

I am not suggesting that private homes should not exist, nor that they should not make profits. I am saying that after a lifetime of contribution to society people should be entitled to a dignified old age, and that there should be an option available to anyone who wants and needs care to get it provided out of taxation.

I agree Doodledog. I think the very notion that anyone should make a profit from the care of our most vulnerable people, whether they are older people, those with disabilities, or children is sickening and a terrible indictment of the type of society we have become.