Following on from the 'posh' thread......

Not a class system, but, like the American, one based on money.

But again, even then only in broad groupings. The third of the population on the lowest incomes have a very different lifestyle to the middle third and different again from the top third.

But each group contains so many different groups of people. The lowest third contains many students and new graduates, probably in only temporary poverty as well as eldely people who have livd in poverty all their lives. In between those extreme end groups ar hundreds of other groups, single parents etc.

Mid group incomes include better off pensioners, young people in well paid jobs, professional families with mid group incomes. living anywhere from new estates, Victorian terraces and interwar semis. theupper class contains popstars, premier league footballers and the landed , or not landed gentry.

Speak to almost anyone in the middle and higher income groups and you will find their parents or grandparents started life in manual or other jobs. My grandparents start life variously as a factory machinist, shop assistant, agricultural labourer and London docker.

Yes, we have social divisions, but they are money not background based. of course the upper inccome have their objectionable steroetypes like Rees Mobb, but at the other end of the line you have have Mike Lynch and other posturing Union leaders who pretend they are one of the under class while receiving middle class salaries. You will get these anywhere, but look atus en masse and class doesn't exist as a social divider, but money does.

Money isn’t the only driver of class though Monica, class is still also based on lineage, social standing, values and attitudes. I disagree that class doesn’t exist as a social divider, money doesn’t buy you in to the upper class circle, it will only take you so far.

I definitely think there is a class system still operating in Britain. As someone up thread said, as long as we have a royal family, there is a class system in existence. It’s less pronounced than it was, but it’s there. People are judged on their accents, look at what has been said about Angela Rayner for example. No one can aspire to be our HofS either because that is down to birth. We are not a meritocracy.

Caleo

Social class markers like MerylStreep mentions are so interesting. This deserves a thread all on its own.

That's what I was getting at in my post. People often think that how you refer to your meals, whether you make guests take their shoes off and the size of your TV determine class, when they are more about taste (which can, of course, be class-based) than part of any 'system'.

They are the things that cause snobbery and make people feel uncomfortable, but they are not unfair or dangerous. It is the underlying factors, such as access to education and social connections that create inequality and stifle ability - and that stifling is bad for society as a whole. We should be encouraging everyone with talent to be able to use it, not settling for having the mediocre coaxed through A levels to get them to the universities with the most kudos and then paying them more for the rest of their lives, supposedly on merit.

Quite right Casdon.

I think Carol Middleton who was born into a working class family broke down some of the barriers that you refer to Casdon, although I imagine she would be more of an exception and for a while did have to put up with her origins being mocked by some upper class buffoons on the periphery of the circles they moved into.

Absolutely Doodledog. It has so very frequently been alleged that Prince Harry only passed his two A levels because of the ‘help’ he received from his teachers and also that he would never have got into Sandhurst on his own merit but rather it was who he was. We aren’t sure that this is totally true (though the number of times and the sources suggest some truth) but anyway, it shows that connections still work for many.

Doodledog wrote:

"Equalising educational opportunity would, IMO, be the most effective way to close the gap, but it is unlikely to happen as those in power have usually benefited from the unequal educational chances the current system perpetuates and will never give it up."

I agree with Doodledog, above, on all counts.

Here is John Betjeman’s poem from 1952 ridiculing the “Nouveau Riche”

How To Get On In Society by John Betjeman
Phone for the fish knives, Norman
As cook is a little unnerved;
You kiddies have crumpled the serviettes
And I must have things daintily served.

Are the requisites all in the toilet?
The frills round the cutlets can wait
Till the girl has replenished the cruets
And switched on the logs in the grate.

It's ever so close in the lounge dear,
But the vestibule's comfy for tea
And Howard is riding on horseback
So do come and take some with me

Now here is a fork for your pastries
And do use the couch for your feet;
I know that I wanted to ask you-
Is trifle sufficient for sweet?

Milk and then just as it comes dear?
I'm afraid the preserve's full of stones;
Beg pardon, I'm soiling the doileys
With afternoon tea-cakes and scones.

A more up to date version

How to get on in Society, 2011

Martin Parker (2011) (see website)

Top up my spray tan, Darren,
then phone up Hello and OK
and gold-plate the taps in the toilet.
The Beckhams are coming to stay!

I’ve just origamied the Andrex.
Have I time for another tattoo
in spurious Chinese, with dragons,
or maybe a blatant FU?

I’ve had my nails covered in glitter
and my eyelids and midriff as well.
My extensions are almost the shade of my hair
which is rigid with Superdrug gel.

But it’s hard for a girl to look “current”
when Manolos are something she lacks
and her nipple ring’s only nine carat
and it’s hours since she last had a wax.

Thank you, Sago. I know the Betjeman, of course, but I wasn’t aware of the more recent version. Much of the language ridiculed in the Betjeman is still used by the Hyacinth Buckets if this world..

growstuff

Dickens My OH is a Ridder Første, which was presented by King Harald V, so the remnants of a class system exist in Norway.

!!

Yes, the 'remnants' do exist - but not in the same way as here in the UK. Especially amongst the younger generation. I think it might have something to do with their education system which I believe is one of the best in the world (depending on who's doing the ranking of course).

Interestingly, there was controversy over Harald's proposed marriage to Sonja because of her status as a commoner. It is alleged that he told his father that if he couldn't marry her, he wouldn't marry at all and there would be no heirs! Whether this is true or not, I don't know!

Define "middle class"
I went to college with a woman from Liverpool who insisted she was middle class because " I have a washing machine and a fridge freezer".
When I said I was working class she couldn't understand why that was true ...because I had businesses and employed people .
I still dont know what "middle class " is .I had never heard anyone using the term until that day when I was in my 30's.
Maybe thats why people here dont look down of folk who live in council hoses or work in factories.
We're a' Jock Tamsons bairns

council houses

But claiming you’re working class does as much to perpetuate the class system as deciding what you think qualifies you to be middle or upper class.

I don't think I will ever stop being the fat girl from the council house which is what I was called at my very nice grammar school.

I grew up in Clacton on sea having moved there from the East End of London when I was ten. Could have been worse. Could have been Southend!

So much depends on the person. As a pensioner who has done a variety of jobs that many would consider menial, I would still consider myself socially and educationally above someone like "Sir" Philip Green who appears to have nothing to offer but money and joins the long list of people I wouldn't want in my house.

DD has gone from the tiny village school she started in to being a respected researcher who has just returned from back to back conferences in Greece and Spain where she has been speaking about gene editing. What class is she.

I once asked the consultant who treated my husband (definitely middle or upper middle) where he lived. He told me it was near Sunningdale (If you don't know the home counties it's definitely posh with plenty of millionaires). I fell about laughing and said "Well of course you do Darling" and he said "Don't worry we do lower the tone"

The discussion here and comments just prove the class thing is definitely alive and well and glaringly obvious. Accents are just one aspect of it. The RF are at the apex and there will always be class distinctions whilst they still have power and probably even if they didn’t.

Well, if you take two babies born today, one in Middlesbrough and one in Virginia Water, with nothing to distinguish them but accident of birth, the one born in Middlesbrough is much less likely to become a senior medical consultant, a High Court judge or senior barrister, a general or an admiral, editor of a national newspaper, prime minister, a top civil servant, a senior bishop of the Church of England, Director General of the BBC, an ambassador to another country or the CEO of an FT 100 company.

I also suggest that the one born in Virginia Water is unlikely to be encouraged to take up an engineering apprenticeship on leaving school.

I'll leave you to consider your answer to kittylester's question in that context.

Blossoming

Yes we do, and we always will while we have a monarchy that clings on to its rights and privileges.

Yes I agree.
The Class system is alive and well in Britain today.

I see myself as what is called Upper Middle Class, as were my parents, g/parents, etc., I believe. I think it depends on education, accent, use of English, interests, upbringing and general demeanor, including attitude to others. In no way do I see myself as superior, just different, and many of another class share some of the above and I don't discriminate. Smug - moi??

MerylStreep. Born in a smart London suburb, I lived in Southend for 30+ years, but never picked up the accent. Locals used to describe me as posh, I am not!

There will always be a class system as long as people categorise themself into a 'class' based on some banal attributes or their upbringing.
The biggest banality of all is having a monarchy who are in a privileged position of untold wealth simply because of an accident of birth or marriage and nothing to do with earned wealth or talent. Absolutely staggering that some people literally bow to honour people in that position and the rest of us are forced to contribute to their upkeep!

BigBertha1

I grew up in Clacton on sea having moved there from the East End of London when I was ten. Could have been worse. Could have been Southend!

Big Bertha
I’ve obviously offended you with my reference to Clacton.
I didn’t mean it would be worse if i was born in Clacton, I was referring to people who get sniffy about some of our seaside towns.

Definitely a class system here in the UK although probably less defined than of old. I firmly believe we're all equal and deserve equal treatment and nobody should kowtow to anybody else. However, it's a fact that some people have more opportunities than others based on where they live, income, education standards in their local schools, even accents and the list goes on. Until these inequalities are ironed out the class system will remain.