JK Rowling putting her money where her mouth is

Mollygo

Wyllow3

"Of course there will be transwomen who will need protection, which is provided and liberally funded"
where?

I don’t know of any examples, but surely it would be funded by all the males TIM or not, and the female trans rights supporters who care so desperately about the needs of TIM as I have seen evidenced on here.

Well if people don't know examples then its hardly a valid point is it? Point is, the help isn't there on the whole, only in small pockets.

Thanks, gdh. I'll watch that tomorrow.

Links to the film for anyone who’d like to watch it. It’s the first UK documentary that looks at the clash between women’s rights and trans ideology.

Vimeo - adulthumanfemale.info

YouTube - youtu.be/94HFMSm-JBo

twitter.com/ahfdoco/status/1601875314547777536?s=61&t=PMkIkq_4358jrkSiOdR6pQ

How did this happen to us? It's (almost) unbelievable that men are censoring what women can watch in 21st Century Britain.

A wee snapshot of what life is like for women who only want to watch a film. Happened tonight in Edinburgh.

twitter.com/dalgetysusan/status/1603099110810128384?s=61&t=lxYgIXmVvjC4I5n8SnVUbg

Wyllow3

"Of course there will be transwomen who will need protection, which is provided and liberally funded"
where?

I don’t know of any examples, but surely it would be funded by all the males TIM or not, and the female trans rights supporters who care so desperately about the needs of TIM as I have seen evidenced on here.

"Of course there will be transwomen who will need protection, which is provided and liberally funded"
where?

So glad JKRowling is providing this as the rape counseling service in Glasgow is so flawed. And even more pleased to read the previous posts, sanity is gaining confidence again and we all need to say it out loud. Of course there will be transwomen who will need protection, which is provided and liberally funded but women need to feel when at their most vulnerable that there won’t be men who for their own sexual reasons won’t be allowed to self identify without the current checks, which is what the changes are proposing. And as everyone says without civilised debate. We all know the horrific figures of sexual abuse of women by men, men, ie people with penises, will have to accept that their access to female safe spaces is restricted, as the GRA requires. Just for them to self identify is asking for more abuse. It is already happening and it is up to us who are not threatened to fight for those who are.

That makes sense Dickens, thanks. I don't see things like that, but I don't look for them. I'm not saying they aren't out there, but honestly - the only 'hate' I see is from TRAs against people (usually women) who speak out against them. There has always been hatred of people who are different, so it's no surprise that some of that is reserved for transpeople, though.

I am well aware that I live in a relatively protected bubble, but when I hear criticism of transpeople it is always about the Stonewall agenda of erasing women altogether, violent TRAs and those who abuse lesbians - not about 'ordinary' people who just want to live quietly. Anyone being 'unkind' about 'ordinary' transpeople would be give short shrift.

That's one of the reasons it is so exasperating on here - constantly being told that criticising the notion of 'gender' is equivalent to being racist, homophobic and more, when it is simply not true. Similarly, hearing from politicians that transpeople are 'the most marginalised people in society' just doesn't ring true either - far from it.

Well done to JK Rowling. She’s leading against a wave of madness against women. With her all the way. Admire her courage. She has true heart in the face of such hate

I used to have a very nice trans customer. We got on very well and had a lot of interests in common. I didn't go round thinking "Yes but she's really a man" or worry about meeting her in the Ladies, but I do know there were differences between her experience of becoming a woman and mine of growing up as a woman. I would certainly think that someone like her would need their own safe space because she would have been quite vulnerable if there had been violent opposition to her.

I am not transphobic either. I also refuse to think of myself as transphobic just because I refuse to see transwomen as women. I see them as transwomen and I see women as women, with equal rights but individual needs.

Bluecat

What I won't do, because I can't, is accept that transwomen are women and transmen are men. It's not just the experience of living in a male or female body. It's the way that you have experienced the world - the expectations, the conventions, the advantages and disadvantages - because you are in that body. The life experience of women and transwomen, or men and transmen, is very different.

You've said it so much better than I could have done.

I feel exactly the same. And refute the label of 'transphobic' for believing this.

Doodledog

*. . . . and the overt hate directed - by both sides - surely there is room for adult debate about what is best for society as a whole, and I mean everybody?*

Can you point to an example of hate from those who defend women's rights, please? I am not saying that I mix in all circles, and I certainly don't go looking for it on social media, but I can honestly say that I have never come across transphobia, much less 'hate' of transpeople, whether virtually or in 'real life'. I have, however, heard and seen hate towards so-called 'TERFS', as well as threats of violence. I have also seen and experienced the Stonewall agenda that compels people to declare pronouns on emails and Zoom/Teams screens, thus forcing people to comply with an ideology with which they may not have agreed.

How can prejudice and hate (again, from all sides) ever be counteracted by being silenced?
Again, this is not borne out by my experience (which again, I am not claiming to be comprehensive, but still.) It is not that fact-based feminists refuse to talk about the issues - for ages the mantra from Stonewall was 'No Debate'. They refused to discuss their demands with anyone, as they wanted to push through their agenda without interference from critical voices, and simply refused to talk about them beyond insisting on their being adopted.

In a nutshell Doodledog, when I talk about "both sides", I'm not referring specifically to women and transwomen, but to the whole body of people who - particularly on social media - indulge in hate and malice towards the transgender population, and conversely and strangely, also spew misogyny. And I spend a lot of time (far too much) on social media. I've just hours ago come off a site where the posters (mostly men) have been making awful comments about transwomen, and at the same time spouting insults at 'wimmin' who oppose the idea that transwomen are women... for "wanting it all", and "well, you wanted equality and now you've got it". This was in relation to the news that a women-only nightclub has been formed for women who want to avoid the sexual harassment of men in such clubs, but developed into a trans v women 'debate'.

In other words, there are hateful people who appear to despise both trans women and women.

My fault (as usual), I wasn't specific enough.

...for ages the mantra from Stonewall was 'No Debate'. They refused to discuss their demands with anyone, as they wanted to push through their agenda without interference from critical voices, and simply refused to talk about them beyond insisting on their being adopted.

That's what I meant when I talked about the problem of not being allowed to discuss the matter because to do so was considered transphobic. I thought that was pretty clear, though.

Bluecat, I had to answer the door in the middle of my post, and missed yours, but we seem to be saying similar things.

I think many of your points can be verified by looking at some of the threads on here, tbh. The condescension and accusations of hatred/phobia etc seem to be part of the trans agenda playbook.

. . . . and the overt hate directed - by both sides - surely there is room for adult debate about what is best for society as a whole, and I mean everybody?

Can you point to an example of hate from those who defend women's rights, please? I am not saying that I mix in all circles, and I certainly don't go looking for it on social media, but I can honestly say that I have never come across transphobia, much less 'hate' of transpeople, whether virtually or in 'real life'. I have, however, heard and seen hate towards so-called 'TERFS', as well as threats of violence. I have also seen and experienced the Stonewall agenda that compels people to declare pronouns on emails and Zoom/Teams screens, thus forcing people to comply with an ideology with which they may not have agreed.

How can prejudice and hate (again, from all sides) ever be counteracted by being silenced?
Again, this is not borne out by my experience (which again, I am not claiming to be comprehensive, but still.) It is not that fact-based feminists refuse to talk about the issues - for ages the mantra from Stonewall was 'No Debate'. They refused to discuss their demands with anyone, as they wanted to push through their agenda without interference from critical voices, and simply refused to talk about them beyond insisting on their being adopted.

I tried to have a polite online discussion, on a progressive website, about J K Rowling and the possible clash between trans and women's rights. My position was that sex is something you're born with but gender is socially constructed. You're not born with a desire to wear sparkly pink or play with train sets. This type of stereotype, which always seems to be cited when people talk about how they or their child was "in the wrong body, seems outdated to me. However, there are definitely differences in the ways that the genders are treated and are expected to behave. I think it's perfectly understandable that someone might say" I believe I will be happier behaving as, and being treated as, the other gender". I support strongly their right to do so, providing that it doesn't affect other people's rights. Then everything has to be taken into consideration.

What I won't do, because I can't, is accept that transwomen are women and transmen are men. It's not just the experience of living in a male or female body. It's the way that you have experienced the world - the expectations, the conventions, the advantages and disadvantages - because you are in that body. The life experience of women and transwomen, or men and transmen, is very different.

I asked why, for example, "transwoman" was not a respected identity in its own right. Why was it necessary to insist that "transwomen are women"? It is because of this insistence that there's so much conflict, and illogical situations arise such as people who are biologically male (with the life experience of growing up male) being in places specifically designated as safe space for women.

I have never met such aggression in any other online discussion. It was impossible to have a logical debate. There were only two or three people who were being unpleasant, but they veered between rudeness - "You're a TERF" - and patronising - "You don't understand the difference between sex and gender." As an old feminist and lifelong lefty, I didn't appreciate either attitude. It's impossible to have a nuanced opinion on this subject - if you don't agree with the trans activist view, you're labelled as hating trans people. I have a lot of sympathy for Rowling and I admire her for using her money to provide help for a situation which clearly causes her great concern.

So if I want to have counselling after being raped by a male (regardless of what he was wearing) I would seek refuge in a space that offered counselling and support where I could be sure I wouldn’t be faced by a lying male.

Well done JKR - with all the gender idiocy currently going on in Scotland under the rule of the Nats, a women only service is desperately needed. Trans women are NOT women - they are men, and women who have been raped would generally prefer to be treated only by other women, not someone with a penis who calls themself a woman (very few so-called trans women have surgery, which in itself begs a question). I assume she is fully funding this herself as that means she would not be under any obligation to accept trans women as clients - a group that is amply catered for at every other rape crisis centre in the area. The man who is head of the other crisis centre is disgusting - and who on earth thought it was a good idea to appoint a man as head of a rape crisis centre in the first place? He can call himself a woman but that does not make him one.

What worries me most is the fact that to even want to debate / discuss the issues involved in gender identity is assumed to be transphobic. And transphobia can be encoded into law. Both ways.

Ignoring the salacious headlines of the more populist media - and the overt hate directed - by both sides - surely there is room for adult debate about what is best for society as a whole, and I mean everybody? As with all other areas of social, cultural and political life, we are all to some degree or other affected. Especially when these issues become enshrined in law.

Why can't we talk about it? We talk about life and death - euthanasia, about religion, etc, which are core our very existence. Everyone who is affected, trans or otherwise, should be able to express their opinions, and I mean that. A transgender individual talking about his / her experiences is as valid as a non-transgender person talking about theirs.

In a civilised society, a family unit faced with problems within the family, over anything - money, family members' behaviour, death, illness, whatever - usually get together and have a discussion about the problem and decide what they are going to do about it, how to solve it. Isn't that just a macrocosm of society as a whole?

Through debate, through information, comes understanding. How can prejudice and hate (again, from all sides) ever be counteracted by being silenced?

And that brings me on to this. Where is all the hate against JKR coming from - the death threats? And where does the same hate and aggression towards transgender people stem? And why?

Without the 'debate' the 'war' will rage on and on. Of course, there are some individuals who are beyond the realms of rationality and not much can be done about them. But for the rest of us, let's talk without censorship.

I for one do not accept this new way of referring to women as sis women. I don’t know what it means and I don’t care. I am a woman, end of. A trans woman has that name because they are not a woman. I feel for anyone who feels they were born in the wrong body but they are not, and never will be, women. I will only ever be a woman, and proud of it. Why must everything be turned upside down to accommodate the few? They can be easily accommodated without trying to demean or belittle actual women.

Yup, that sounds a perfectly reasonable solution to me.

There is no reason at all why trans people can't have their own space and women can't have their own space. No one can understand a trans man like a transman and properly support them in the issues they face unless they have some experience.

The same goes for women. Unless you have a period every month you cannot possibly comprehend how that feels or how it truly feels to be 100% female. I agree about the chromosomes.

I think Transmen are deserving of support. I also think women have the right to want their own space. I know JK has had a lot of hate, but I actually think she has done womankind a huge favour in standing up for our rights.

Refuge: a place or situation providing safety . A state of being safe.

That’s it.

I'm going to stand up and say I applaud JKR. I am not transphobic but I am a woman. I can only imagine that a time in your life when you need to seek refuge is not a time to be mansplaining gender.