Charles may pay for Andrew's security

How many would be happy for their daughter or granddaughter to be alone with him?

Prince Andrew is like many powerful men who feel entitled to get what they want . We should leave the man alone now. If he has not learned the lesson he never will.

VioletSky. Before or after the allegations?

Smileless2012

I haven't seen any "apologists" for PA paddyann. Saying that a case against him was never proved in a court of law, and that he isn't a convicted sex abuser are facts.

It doesn’t matter. For some, facts are only acceptable if you like them. For some, the law is only right if you like the outcome. Otherwise,
^’I'll be judge, I'll be jury,'
Said cunning old Fury:
'I'll try the whole cause,
and condemn you to death.’^
Is as true as ever.

Violetsky Are you accusing him of rape or of being a man who likes indulging in coercive sexual behaviour.

Those are new accusations. What is the evidence?

Some of the women attending parties he attended with Phillip Epstein, had been coerced but not by Prince Andrew and he had no reason to know they were. Similarly there is no evidence that he ever sought out under-age girls. The woman involved was not under age under Britissh law and I think it unreasonable to expect him to have an encyclopaedic knowledge of the age of consent in every jurisdiction he ever visits.

I am not an apologist for PA, but I think people need to stick to the facts of what he did and what he was accused off. That he was the sort of man who liked living the high life with people of dubious probity who were happy to provide a life style for him for the cachet of his name: that he was the kind of man who prided himself on ignoring the advice given by other people when they warned him of the dangers of pursuing some of these friendships. This is known.

But it has never been alleged that he was a rapist or indulged in deliberate coercive sex.

👍 M0nica

Charles not letting Andrew have BP as residence. A security chap gives his account of Andrew he said he was supposed to vet everyone entering BP but Andrew was seeing so many laddies he was told to let them all in no questions.

Maybe ladies won’t turn up at Andrews other residences so easily now.

MOnica is correct, legally
PA’s moral and ethical behaviour in maintaining friendship with Epstein and Maxwell was of a very low standard. I’m sure many men took advantage of sexual opportunities with the young women Epstein made available
I don’t see any evidence this is changing. Indeed sexual harassment, grooming, sexual exploitation seems to thrive.

Excellent post M0nica.

I agree Iam, he should have known better than to have maintained his friendships with Epstein and Maxwell.

He was known as 'randy Andy', presumably because there was never a shortage of women happy to be with him. He'd have had no reason if he did have sex with his accuser, to have believed she was there against her will and had been trafficked.

Andrew explained his behaviour in that TV interview so we do know something about him from the horse's mouth, as it were. I have no idea what he could now do to earn a living and pay for his keep. Wasn't he some kind of trade ambassador at one time? Is Sarah still writing her childrens' books? Perhaps she is bringing in a wage.

a good summary MOnica.
you have made the point that i gave up trying to make, and did it more clearly.

I think he is gross and guilty of funding people trafficking

And I don't agree it matters that the age of consent is different in the UK if it is illegal elsewhere.

And yes men are responsible for where their penis goes and should be asking questions... or just not attending this sort of party if they care about their public image in any way at all.

Disgusting old man

He can come after me for slander of he chooses but you have no power over me

A witness in the Maxwell Trial gives completely different repeat of events to the relationship between Giuffrie and Andrew that night

Violet Sky wanting a person to be tried in a court of law and
found guilty does not mean the person is guilty. I didn’t believe
Guffrie but she has not been charged with any crime

So you'd be happy for your daughter or granddaughter to be alone with him if they were 16?

Violet Sky sorry but a silly question, Andrew born 1950,
Guffrie born 1983, you ask if I would be happy with a daughter or granddaughter dating a man ,any man, 33 years older than her

It's not a silly question at all

If you wouldn't be happy for your daughter or granddaughter to be in the position she was in, it's not OK for anyone.

There aren't any special humans and there aren't any substandard humans deserving of being sex trafficked

There are just daughters and granddaughters

But it happens. Ask any sexual abuse survivor the reactions of people they told. Ask them how they have been treated like they are dirty or broken or damaged goods. Ask them how society sees them.

I see daughters and grandaughters.

VioletSky

So you'd be happy for your daughter or granddaughter to be alone with him if they were 16?

Would I want any young woman to be alone with him against her will? No.

Would I like to see laws tightened up to protect women and girls from all sorts of men with dubious motives, particularly when they are vulnerable? Absolutely.

Would I have liked to see PA tried properly in a court of law? Yes, I think that would be the fairest thing to happen.

Does any of the above mean that the king is wrong to pay the security bill? No, I don't think so. By dint of his birth and because of the accusations against him, PA is always going to be a target, so will need security. Someone has to pay for it, and I'd rather it were the king than the taxpayer.

Yest how dare we...

How dare we see him as anything less even though so many are happy to blame victims, how dare we say his lifestyle is disgusting

I'd pay his security for his home and very public events. That would be it. No safe places for shenanigans from me

He could give after dinner speeches over Zoom.

According to a witness at the Maxwell trial, Guffrie was very excited at spending time with her alleged rapist , so not against her will.

I really can’t think of a male who is so arrogant as Andrew thinking any girl has sex with him because she was forced to.

This thread is too depressing for Chritmas Eve

Hope you all find some joy

Is anyone saying that they 'support' PA?

I'm certainly not. What I am saying, in case you are misreading, is that regardless of how odious he is, PA will need security, and if the king wants to pay for it, let him crack on - better than charging the taxpayer.

And no, I wouldn't want any woman to be have the presence of any man forced upon her - there should always be informed consent, particularly for vulnerable women and girls. Given the power imbalance, however, pretty much any woman is likely to be vulnerable in the presence of PA.

I firmly believe in safe places being protected, for women, not for predators - something you have argued against before now, VS. I'm really not sure who you are arguing with, really. You and Anniebach clearly disagree, but who is the 'you all' you refer to?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fy1Nn-2KNLg

not quite as title suggests though! see what jenni bond explains.