should the government be ashamed

Hetty58

Dibbydod, no, we're not all in the same boat - we're in various different boats. Nurses have had a decreasing income (in real terms) for over a decade. They need their wages restored to pre 2010 levels. That's not even a pay rise, is it?

Meanwhile carers keep working with little appreciation and certainly no pay rise… But are seldom mentioned anywhere…🤷‍♀️(Minimum wage)

Jaxjacky

Nurses in Scotland are now striking in the New Year after rejecting their pay offer. Seems the UK as a whole will be struggling.

RCN members have turned down the offer.

Unite and Unison have accepted the offer.

So where does that leave the Scottish nurses, then volver?

Some 'in', some 'out' ?

Or just all of them on strike after all?

I think it's "some in, some out" MaizieD. But happy to be corrected.

But Unite and Unison accepted the offer "for now" so its still in the Government's court. But at least they are talking to the nurses' unions.

GagaJo

nadateturbe

Yes, the government is useless. I do sympathise with all those wanting a decent pay rise, but the NHS strike was timed to have maximum effect. Just wrong.

But of course it was. That is logical. It needs to have maximum effect to create maximum noise in the media. Maximum pressure on the government.

Normally I would agree. Best to have maximum effect. I was union rep at work and a strong believer in unions.
But not when dealing with people's health and lives.
People are coping with too much right now so there's no point in unions claiming they are doing this for the patients.
This imo is the wrong time to strike.
Unions need to think of a way we can support health workers to achieve their aims.
We actually need to unite to do more to make the government listen to and address all our concerns. .

Ok what do the nhs staff do because they tried ‘everything else’ and the government took no notice. The government is responsible

Out of interest, I thought I'd look up the precise definition of shame in the Oxford Dictionary. It is 1. a feeling of humiliation or distress caused by the consciousness of wrong or foolish behaviour. 2. dishonour- a person or thing bringing dishonour. So, yes, they should be ashamed for the way they have behaved for the past 12 years but the consciousness aspect seems to be missing.

I think the government have read this very wrong, and Steve Barclay should be ashamed of himself for his statements about deaths being the fault of striking workers. The NHS staff members who are on strike, be they paramedics, nurses, or emergency call handlers, are striking for the future of the NHS, for our safety. Any minister claiming that the strikes are causing harm, causing dangerous hold ups, is dangerously our of touch; these things have been happening everywhere for weeks and weeks. The spokesmen on picket lines this morning said they would leave for a high risk call, deal with it, then go back to the picket, and also that they would all mobilise for a major emergency such as a motorway pile up. Different attitude to the intransigent government. The Tories are reading this very badly indeed if they think that they, and their paid propagandists, the press, can turn the public against paramedics and nurses.

HousePlantQueen

I think the government have read this very wrong, and Steve Barclay should be ashamed of himself for his statements about deaths being the fault of striking workers. The NHS staff members who are on strike, be they paramedics, nurses, or emergency call handlers, are striking for the future of the NHS, for our safety. Any minister claiming that the strikes are causing harm, causing dangerous hold ups, is dangerously our of touch; these things have been happening everywhere for weeks and weeks. The spokesmen on picket lines this morning said they would leave for a high risk call, deal with it, then go back to the picket, and also that they would all mobilise for a major emergency such as a motorway pile up. Different attitude to the intransigent government. The Tories are reading this very badly indeed if they think that they, and their paid propagandists, the press, can turn the public against paramedics and nurses.

Yes, and if the government pushes this to the limit, we, as a country, must remain firm and United with the strikers.

nadateturbe

GagaJo

nadateturbe

Yes, the government is useless. I do sympathise with all those wanting a decent pay rise, but the NHS strike was timed to have maximum effect. Just wrong.

But of course it was. That is logical. It needs to have maximum effect to create maximum noise in the media. Maximum pressure on the government.

Normally I would agree. Best to have maximum effect. I was union rep at work and a strong believer in unions.
But not when dealing with people's health and lives.
People are coping with too much right now so there's no point in unions claiming they are doing this for the patients.
This imo is the wrong time to strike.
Unions need to think of a way we can support health workers to achieve their aims.
We actually need to unite to do more to make the government listen to and address all our concerns. .

What other tool do they have other than strike action that the government will listen to nadeturbe?
We are in last chance saloon here.

It's a very long time since I've been involved in unions, and I'm not sure how the law has changed but a general strike that excludes NHS. Is that a possibility? Large demonstrations? I don't know. But there must be a way.
And vote differently at the next election.

Listening to news. Very depressing about strikes. I'm sure it will cost lives.

nadateturbe it has for some time, or I'd with you. Also, just watching the news, no evidence as yet.

Demonstrations will be ignored. Truly, what else can they do? They really are on their last legs as are our services.

Good to see care sector mentioned above. Hand in hand - one won't work without the other.

I agree, others need consideration.
I just think life is too precious. Another way has got to be found. It might help patients long term, but not right now.

nadateturbe, the strike isn’t only about pay though I’d support if it was. Paramedics, nurses and doctors are all saying current practices, staff shortages etc are putting lives as risk. The government refuses to listen. They’ve had 11 years of dismantling public services including the nhs. They’re responsible for lives at risk

Of course the government is at fault. But more lives are being put at risk by going on strike. I could never live with myself if someone died because I was on strike.

The problem is nadeturbe that people are dying every day anyway because they have to wait too long for an ambulance, ambulances are not available as they are queueing outside hospitals. The situation is unsafe for patients regardless of any strike action.
The ambulance staff are striking because it’s the only way to bring public attention to the serious nature of what is happening to the NHS, it’s not just about pay. The question I’d ask is, could you forgive yourself for not taking strike action if that was the only tool you had left, when you faced life and death situations on a daily basis and failed to help because of a no strike principle?

My daughter is a paramedic in the midlands and worked her 12 hour shift as normal today, electing not to strike. She was busy - but had less queuing outside A&E. She started at 6am and went without a break nor anything to eat until 3.15, when a patient’s wife made them a roll. She finished late, at near 7pm. That’s pretty typical for every working day. What’s forgotten is the long queues outside, sometimes tending elderly patients who have little realistic chance of achieving a full recovery because of the delay. For all the training and all the work and all the night shift allowance, she earns just over £30k - think on before you damn people.

A paramedic rang a radio programme today.

He tried unsuccessfully to get an ambulance for a care home resident - when he called 999 it rang out and he got cut off. He then tried 11 and the same thing happened but he got through to a helpline for Strep A or scarlet fever (can't remember which).

He said whether they are on strike or nor people needing ambulances can't get them. The only difference today when the paramedics are on strike is that today you won't see ambulances queuing up outside hospitals.

So the government should not be trying to lay the blame on strikers if people die waiting for an ambulance because this has been happening before today and that is entirely down to them not sorting out social care so that medically fit people can vacate a hospital bed.

My daughter has learnt to never enquire about a patients’ fate. She does everything she can, but as alluded to above, sometimes she knows that’s just not enough when dealing with the frail.

When I dialled 999 after my husband, a stage 4 cancer patient had a significant stroke, I waited 10 minutes to speak to the call handler. The ambulance would be 1 hr 40 mins but dial 999 if there’s a crisis
We were fortunate, it arrived in 20 mins having been re-directed. The paramedics were wonderful. The wait in the hospital corridor 2 hours, along with many other very sick people on trollies, with 2 paramedics waiting with them, ambulances stacked up outside.

It’s shameful and how anyone can criticise medical staff for drawing attention to this is beyond me

Iam64 a lady here (NI) was told the wait would be 3-4 hours for her very elderly stroke victim mother. I have waited in A&E for six hours more than once. The two out-of-hours doctors in Belfast at the weekend had over 400 calls to deal with.
I understand the problems. The NHS is a mess.
I understand the stress of staff, who are wonderful caring people. And no medical staff should be doing 12 hour shifts.
I just think right now is not the time.

Yes the government should be ashamed. They are trying to take on the unions for ideological reasons. They are also betting that public opinion will turn when there are more disastrous results. They should be doing everything possible to resolve the issues. Instead I guess that they are all off to the country for the Christmas break.

Just to point out that there is no strike in Scotland because the Scottish Government DID sit down with the Unions and negotiated a settlement.

nadenturbe right now is not the right time.
If not now when?
Our government has pursued the ideology of low tax and small state for over a decade now, aiming to withdraw from public services and hoping for the private sector to pick up the pieces.

The result is underpaid, thoroughly overworked, demoralised public sector workers, with our spending of GDP on health dropping below many comparable countries.

The problem of social care, much of which is privately provided, has been wilfully ignored. Hospital bed provision has declined to such an extent that it is so bad now that patients are waiting in A&E for admission for patients to be discharged, or die, to free up a (still warm) bed.

Oh yes now IS the time, and it has been a long time coming.