Historic rape accusation, should we change behaviours?

Yes GagaJo the statistics are as you say, but it still has to be case by case.

GagaJo

I agree, to a certain extent Delia.

But the fact is, the majority of women have suffered some kind of sexual assault (the me too movement). That is an awfully large amount of men committing those acts. I do understand not all men, but it is a horribly large number of men.

As feminists, we should support women who say they've been raped/assaulted. The chances are (statistically) that they're telling the truth. And the chances are (also statistically) that a man accused of sexual assault who is claiming innocence is not telling the truth.

We live in a patriarchal society that protects men, and live within a legal system that actively discriminates against women when it comes to rape. My money is on the woman making the accusation. Not the man claiming innocence.

I will support the innocent and would never assume someone is guilty based on their gender, also a person is innocent till proved guilty.

GagaJo

I agree, to a certain extent Delia.

But the fact is, the majority of women have suffered some kind of sexual assault (the me too movement). That is an awfully large amount of men committing those acts. I do understand not all men, but it is a horribly large number of men.

As feminists, we should support women who say they've been raped/assaulted. The chances are (statistically) that they're telling the truth. And the chances are (also statistically) that a man accused of sexual assault who is claiming innocence is not telling the truth.

We live in a patriarchal society that protects men, and live within a legal system that actively discriminates against women when it comes to rape. My money is on the woman making the accusation. Not the man claiming innocence.

By all means support.

Would you take a place on a jury?

A few years ago I was put in a difficult situation. A colleague of over 40 years ago contacted me and other people we worked with trying to collate evidence of a male colleague who she said sexually harassed her. I remember the man as being a bit touchy feely ( lots of men were in the 70s ) but I don’t remember being made to feel uncomfortable and actually liked the man.
I spoke to other people who felt the same as me. The man is almost 80 now and denied any knowledge or memory of the harassment.
The colleague wrote to us and strongly voiced that we had let her down. I do feel a little guilty and have been racking my brain on anything I have forgotten or missed but cannot.
I often think of her and worry she is living with this awful thing if true.

(Missing commas in the above are irritating! Sorry.)

I agree, to a certain extent Delia.

But the fact is, the majority of women have suffered some kind of sexual assault (the me too movement). That is an awfully large amount of men committing those acts. I do understand not all men, but it is a horribly large number of men.

As feminists, we should support women who say they've been raped/assaulted. The chances are (statistically) that they're telling the truth. And the chances are (also statistically) that a man accused of sexual assault who is claiming innocence is not telling the truth.

We live in a patriarchal society that protects men, and live within a legal system that actively discriminates against women when it comes to rape. My money is on the woman making the accusation. Not the man claiming innocence.

Thankyou Gagajo (Weds 10:24). I get what you’re saying.

What a terrible thing, though, be failed on either side - not to be believed when one has been a victim, or to be wrongly convicted when one is innocent.

Statistics can be deceptive and can be used to reinforce prejudice in one direction or another.

Both sides deserve justice. Finding the evidence in these cases is notoriously problematic, but getting it wrong is equally injurious in either case.

Iam64 I've just done a bit of research on top of what I know already.

Police forces do have a Mental Health lead in position but what happens "on the ground" both for charged and victim varies greatly.

See page 26 on for a flavour of this.
www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmicfrs/wp-content/uploads/policing-and-mental-health-picking-up-the-pieces.pdf

It is complex and depends a great deal on resources.

Lathyrus

No and the false accusers that I know, and gave details of earlier, have never apologised to their victims either.
One case was fairly recent. One was almost 15 years ago. The consequences of both will be lifelong.

Abusers of other people rarely apologise. They always excuse themselves. And other people excuse them too.

I cross posted earlier and apologise for not having read the two examples you give of serious, believable allegations that were clearly false.
You are correct Lathyrus, the abusers rarely apologise, they excuse themselves or continue to repeat their lies.

It’s such a complex, difficult area to discuss without people taking up polarised positions. I remember hearing the allegations from the man known as Nick. Some of his allegations were familiar to police and others in the CJ system. Some seemed to me to be clearly fantastical. One issue I’d like to see debated (here and amongst those involved in investigations) is the need for specialist multi disciplinary teams.

My friend who was wrongly accused (I believe) and his wife- ended up moving away. It's sad that they ended up going.

Some people take that as proof that they must have done something wrong, but it isn't always that. I left an area once because I had been in an abusive relationship and I didn't have the emotional energy to stay and fight for what was right.

No and the false accusers that I know, and gave details of earlier, have never apologised to their victims either.
One case was fairly recent. One was almost 15 years ago. The consequences of both will be lifelong.

Abusers of other people rarely apologise. They always excuse themselves. And other people excuse them too.

Sometimes people with dementia can read situations wrongly though.... I remember smiling at my MiL one time and she winked and said "oooh I didn't know you were one of THEM!" Then proceeded to tell my husband (she forgot he was her son at that point and thought he was her brother) that I was "after her" and had been for ages.

Of course, he thought it was funny, but it did make us realise how a glance, or gesture can be taken the wrong way. If my dear MiL had a history of abuse, for example, she might have viewed it as a threat. I'm quite a cautious person, anyway and even that happened to me.

paddyann54

Can we remember that there are historic cases where people have lived all their lives in fear because of rape or abuse they couldn't/didn't report at the time .I watched a programme where a man in his 60's was in tears over abuse that took place when he was a child .
Of course abusers and rapists will deny it happened and the poor souls who suffered get no justice .Just because someone /a man usually says he didn't assault or rape someone doesn't necessarily mean its true

You're right. I read a book about a man in his 60's who's a historic abuse survivor. Those responsible have never apologised.

Wyllow3

Katie59 whatever triggered the woman's response, please reconsider, "the stupid woman kicked off".

You cannot know why. Respect there was a reason and OH, in those circs, did the best thing, but don't judge "stupid"?

As I said we were in a restaurant sitting at a table of 10 what ever her problem where was the threat?.

I totally agree with that Galaxy. There be many reasons why a victim maintains relationship with an abuser. Outward appearances mean nothing.

I an genuinely trying to explore how crimes that are essentially one person word against another can be brought to justice. Both from the point of view of an unprosecuted assault and a false allegation, both of which are incredibly damaging to the innocent party.

Rosie51

Callistemon21 yes that was unforgivable, evidence suppressed. The real transgressor was eventually convicted on DNA evidence 30 years later. You have to wonder if he committed other offences in the interim, with the probability being that he did.

Yes, he did.
Even without DNA the forensic evidence would have proved that Stefan did not commit that crime.

I think a good way to start would be not to judge peoples behaviour because they dont behave in the way you think you would (I dont mean you Lathyrus I am speaking generally) so on this thread there have been some comments about delays in reporting, victims maintaining good relationships with someone after a crime etc. These are quite common ways for victims to react.

I don't think we can Lathyrus which is the major issue with historical accusations.

How can we judge one persons word against another, without evidence?

It’s a serious question and it applies to any crime.

They are currently very unlikely to be proven guilty, if guilty, with that prosecution rate it is pretty much a legal activity.

A person should be presumed innocent until proven guilty. This does also apply to rape cases.

Article 6 of the Human Rights Act 1988 provides citizens in our country the right to a fair and public trial or hearing in relation to both criminal and civil matters. Section 2 of Article 6 states , “Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law”.

“Just because someone/a man says he didn’t assault or rape someone doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true”

Absolutely. And just because someone, man or woman, says they were assaulted or raped, doesn’t mean it’s true either.

That’s the problem. And just because there are many cases of unreported or unprosecuted rape, doesn’t mean that any one particular case will be the same.

Just because there are cases of false allegations doesn’t mean that any one particular case will be false.

Every allegation, every case should be viewed impartially on the evidence. Like any other crime.

Katie59 whatever triggered the woman's response, please reconsider, "the stupid woman kicked off".

You cannot know why. Respect there was a reason and OH, in those circs, did the best thing, but don't judge "stupid"?

Can we remember that there are historic cases where people have lived all their lives in fear because of rape or abuse they couldn't/didn't report at the time .I watched a programme where a man in his 60's was in tears over abuse that took place when he was a child .
Of course abusers and rapists will deny it happened and the poor souls who suffered get no justice .Just because someone /a man usually says he didn't assault or rape someone doesn't necessarily mean its true

I don't think he did anything wrong. It's nice that he apologised. I hope she realised that he meant her no harm.