Public speaking

Doodledog

Thanks, Grandmabatty and Fanny.

Presumably the dropout rate was because people found that they were not capable of doing the job to the standard required? So, there were no 'adaptations', and no 'support and adjustment'? I'm not surprised, as I wouldn't have wanted my children to be taught by someone too anxious to stand in front of a class, however that fits with a theoretical model. That is not to say that I would think any less of them as a person, or that I would assume that they were without ability.

I would, however, feel that they should have taken their limitations into account when choosing their career, and consequently their course of study. This applies to other career choices too (a sample of which I listed above), and again, implies no lack of care or understanding of disability. It is simple pragmatics. If a bus driver goes blind, they have to find another job, however much they might have loved the one they had. The same applies in many jobs and professions.

As I said above, steps are routinely taken to get students to the point where they can be assessed, whether that is the provision of assistive software, an amanuensis in the room, one to one sessions to teach helpful strategies, extra time in exams, or whatever. Money for these things has, of course, been cut, along with so much, but that's for another thread, and if someone started such a thread I would argue strongly that it was short-sighted and just wrong to do so.

The fact remains, however, that there is a responsibility on students (and where applicable their advisors) to choose courses carefully and consider their strengths and weaknesses when doing so. This is why information about assessment has to be made available from the start of the application process.

But the reason you gave for not doing degrees and not teaching was anxiety Doodledog Nothing to do with being blind.
IT is simply untrue that this can be considered as a reason for not doing a degree or a teaching course.

Doodledog

And no, Glorianny of course I didn't mean someone in a wheelchair🙄. If they can present to children, then they would pass the blooming assignment, wouldn't they? There would be no need for special adjustments.

You really are being awkward for the sake of it.

Sorry pandapatch.

No I'm trying to educate you in disability rights which you appear to be completely ignorant about. As you persist in not believing me I have posted two authoritative documents on disability rights which support my views. Unfortunately you seem unable or unwilling to read or pay attention to them. Perhaps you could post links anything supporting the views you have given.

The comment about the wheelchair user was in response to your remark (rather thoughtless perhaps) that anyone had to stand in front of a class.

I suggest anyone who thinks that disability prevents anyone from teaching read this document nadp-uk.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Able-to-Teach.pdf
And if you don't want to read it, one example given
Example 4C
An ITT provider is showing prospective candidates round a campus on an open day. He makes it clear that teaching is a demanding career, that the physical and mental fitness to teach requirements are stringent, and that the course will require a strong commitment and good attendance. He makes a comment that people with mental health conditions should really consider whether teaching will be for them. A student with a mental health condition subsequently decides not to apply for the course.This is likely to be direct discrimination and unlawful.

And no, Glorianny of course I didn't mean someone in a wheelchair🙄. If they can present to children, then they would pass the blooming assignment, wouldn't they? There would be no need for special adjustments.

You really are being awkward for the sake of it.

Sorry pandapatch.

Thanks, Grandmabatty and Fanny.

Presumably the dropout rate was because people found that they were not capable of doing the job to the standard required? So, there were no 'adaptations', and no 'support and adjustment'? I'm not surprised, as I wouldn't have wanted my children to be taught by someone too anxious to stand in front of a class, however that fits with a theoretical model. That is not to say that I would think any less of them as a person, or that I would assume that they were without ability.

I would, however, feel that they should have taken their limitations into account when choosing their career, and consequently their course of study. This applies to other career choices too (a sample of which I listed above), and again, implies no lack of care or understanding of disability. It is simple pragmatics. If a bus driver goes blind, they have to find another job, however much they might have loved the one they had. The same applies in many jobs and professions.

As I said above, steps are routinely taken to get students to the point where they can be assessed, whether that is the provision of assistive software, an amanuensis in the room, one to one sessions to teach helpful strategies, extra time in exams, or whatever. Money for these things has, of course, been cut, along with so much, but that's for another thread, and if someone started such a thread I would argue strongly that it was short-sighted and just wrong to do so.

The fact remains, however, that there is a responsibility on students (and where applicable their advisors) to choose courses carefully and consider their strengths and weaknesses when doing so. This is why information about assessment has to be made available from the start of the application process.

how not who!!!!

To return to the OP - do we know who her grandson got on?

Doodledog

You are still ignoring the question.

I'll try one more time.

*Should a student on a PGCE course who is unable to stand in front of a class be allowed to pass by taking an adapted assignment, and pursue a career in teaching?*

So why can't this student "stand in front of a class" *Doodledog?I take it you don't mean they are physically unable to do so as people in wheelchairs have been teaching for over 30 years. Is your imaginary student subject to anxiety? There are people who can't present to adults but manage to adequately teach children. As for adaptation it already happens. Many students on PGCE courses do not teach whole classes on their practice, but are only assigned groups, just as they don't do a full timetable. Some never progress to a full class and still qualify.
But if there is a problem I can see nothing wrong with providing group teaching over a longer period, with appropriate support. It's a question of providing the individual with the support they need and not just dismissing them and saying they can't do it.

When I applied to do my PGCE in 2017, it was hugely oversubscribed.
It was incredibly competitive to get on the course in the first place.
When I started the course, the lecture theatre was full of around 250 students
When I finished , there honestly was about 30 people who graduated

Doodledog

You are still ignoring the question.

I'll try one more time.

*Should a student on a PGCE course who is unable to stand in front of a class be allowed to pass by taking an adapted assignment, and pursue a career in teaching?*

They would not get on the course in the first place.
There are various tasks involved in the PGCE interview process; one of which is demonstration to a group of around 6 people, and observed by two of the people involved in the interview process (ordinarily a Head Teacher and a University Lecturer)

Grandmabatty

In Scotland student teachers have to demonstrate a competence in different types of literacy by engaging with all learners and modelling good practice and confidence. I paraphrase but you can check the gtcs standards for teaching. A student who could not engage with all learners would be unlikely to pass.

You sound as if you have the knowledge that G evidently lacks. Thanks Grandmabatty.

In Scotland student teachers have to demonstrate a competence in different types of literacy by engaging with all learners and modelling good practice and confidence. I paraphrase but you can check the gtcs standards for teaching. A student who could not engage with all learners would be unlikely to pass.

You are still ignoring the question.

I'll try one more time.

Should a student on a PGCE course who is unable to stand in front of a class be allowed to pass by taking an adapted assignment, and pursue a career in teaching?

Mollygo

Glorianny
People with a disability (including anxiety) sometimes have real talents that only emerge as they gain confidence.
So are you saying that they, including the 9 year old in the original post should struggle through their disability (including anxiety) until they have gained confidence?

Try reading all my posts Mollygo
Here's my recommendations for a 9 year old earlier on this thread
If he were in my class he would have been prepared for a single person presentation for many sessions beforehand. So first session a group or pairs presentation. All children must contribute to planning and stand in front of the class but not speak unless they wish to. Next session all children must contribute to presentation but not necessarily by speaking (holding pictures etc). Next session in pairs both children must speak but not necessarily equally. Next equal presentation. Next solo but he can take a friend to stand with him for support. Finally (and this may not happen until he is older) completely solo presentation.
The concept that children will get over their fears if they are just subjected to the same trial every year is not born out by the evidence. It needs proper support to develop skills and overcome fears.

The words you quoted related to the results which can be achieved with the proper support and adjustment.

Doodledog

Most teachers have degrees these days Glorianny. I was asking whether they should be able to get one without doing the teaching practice element that involves standing in front of a class. The rest, about what happens when they have qualified, would follow from that, surely?

If a colleague had a degree that suggested s/he had completed a course that included class teaching, would you be happy to take on the class teaching element of his or her job? Would you expect people in any of the careers that led from the courses I listed upthread to do so? Or would you expect the qualification to do what it says on the website and prove that the holder is capable of the skills that the course encompasses?

If you can answer without getting into philosophical ramblings about social models, that would be good. You still haven't said how you would feel if you, your child or grandchild studied on a degree that had its accreditation removed because someone else refused to take a relevant assessment. Ignoring the questions doesn't make them go away.

I am not focussing on anything other than the need to balance all the things I have mentioned. Making it personal doesn't help your argument either - it just doesn't hold water.

Most teachers do a degree then a PGCE. I'm saying you can't judge the ability of anyone by any disability they may have. And the social model for disability is not philosophical as far as people who have disabilities are concerned, it's life. But the fact that you refer to it as "ramblings" once again reinforces the image you seem determined to project of someone who neither understands, nor tries to understand, disability.
Basically if there are barriers on a course which would impact on someone with a disability you find ways of mitigating those things. It doesn't mean completely abandoning anything. It does mean providing support and encouragement, sometimes progressing more slowly, using the latest technology, discovering the individual's needs and meeting them.

As someone with a dyslexic daughter I would have imagined you would be fully aware of these things

If you can give me evidence of any degree course which has had its accreditation removed because it catered for the needs of a student with disabilities please provide details of it. Until then I will regard it as an impossible hypothetical case. Legally any higher education provider has a responsibility to provide adaptation for disabled students.

Glorianny
People with a disability (including anxiety) sometimes have real talents that only emerge as they gain confidence.
So are you saying that they, including the 9 year old in the original post should struggle through their disability (including anxiety) until they have gained confidence?

Most teachers have degrees these days Glorianny. I was asking whether they should be able to get one without doing the teaching practice element that involves standing in front of a class. The rest, about what happens when they have qualified, would follow from that, surely?

If a colleague had a degree that suggested s/he had completed a course that included class teaching, would you be happy to take on the class teaching element of his or her job? Would you expect people in any of the careers that led from the courses I listed upthread to do so? Or would you expect the qualification to do what it says on the website and prove that the holder is capable of the skills that the course encompasses?

If you can answer without getting into philosophical ramblings about social models, that would be good. You still haven't said how you would feel if you, your child or grandchild studied on a degree that had its accreditation removed because someone else refused to take a relevant assessment. Ignoring the questions doesn't make them go away.

I am not focussing on anything other than the need to balance all the things I have mentioned. Making it personal doesn't help your argument either - it just doesn't hold water.

Poor wee lad. I have, and have always had to do presentations as part of my role. I have never liked doing it, but can mask it to an extent that you would have to know me very well to realise that I am not comfortable. I have never got used to doing it and it still makes me nervous and gauche. I have never understood why people are expected to have similar competencies, why cannot play to our strengths? Hope your little grandson is okay

I watched Mushy in Educating Yorkshire and the help given to him helped him succeed, according to an update programme
Help to someone who has problems however caused is so often the best way to help them through the difficulty. As someone who has had professional help for disabling fears I know personally that for those with genuine fears for whatever reason, going at a pace faster than you can bear is usually counterproductive and can lead to the situation not improving, but building up to the situation, being able to go at your own pace can bring results.
I personally hate public speaking but if I have to I'm lucky enough to be shortsighted so if I take my reading glasses off the audience sort of blurs .... Helps me a lot.

Doodledog

What does your source have to say about lawyers, teachers, communication professionals, speech therapists, training and development specialists, actors, radio journalists etc etc?

Of course you have ignored the question about the schoolteacher who was too anxious to stand in front of a class. Should she/he pass a PGCE and be allowed to go into teaching? Should s/he be encouraged to look at other careers? Should s/he be allowed to write an essay instead? If s/he went on to be your colleague, would you be happy to cover his or her classes on top of your own? If you were the Head would you be happy for your other staff to be asked to cover for a member of staff who wasn't able to teach? How would you manage their workloads? Would you employ someone as a teacher who couldn't stand in front of a class at all? Would you be happy to have your children or grandchildren taught by such a person?

The same applies to a stammer if it makes the teacher incomprehensible.

I thought we were discussing degrees Doodledog
But I don't mind explaining.
Someone who can do a presentation in University cannot necessarily teach and someone who cannot do a presentation in University may very well be able to teach children.
The point is that you tailor the assessment to fit the needs of the disabled person.
It's called the social model of disability
The Social Model holds that a person isn’t 'disabled' because of their impairment, health condition, or the ways in which they may differ from what is commonly considered the medical 'norm'; rather it is the physical and attitudinal barriers in society – prejudice, lack of access adjustments and systemic exclusion – that disable people. To say that someone is 'just different' or 'differently-abled' ignores the fact that they face these disabling barriers created by society, and implies that they do not experience discrimination, and that society does not need to change to become more accessible and inclusive.
You are as usual focussing on the condition and not on the person. A disability does not necessarily mean you are unable to function in any of those careers. People with a disability (including anxiety) sometimes have real talents that only emerge as they gain confidence.

What does your source have to say about lawyers, teachers, communication professionals, speech therapists, training and development specialists, actors, radio journalists etc etc?

Of course you have ignored the question about the schoolteacher who was too anxious to stand in front of a class. Should she/he pass a PGCE and be allowed to go into teaching? Should s/he be encouraged to look at other careers? Should s/he be allowed to write an essay instead? If s/he went on to be your colleague, would you be happy to cover his or her classes on top of your own? If you were the Head would you be happy for your other staff to be asked to cover for a member of staff who wasn't able to teach? How would you manage their workloads? Would you employ someone as a teacher who couldn't stand in front of a class at all? Would you be happy to have your children or grandchildren taught by such a person?

The same applies to a stammer if it makes the teacher incomprehensible.

Doodledog

Glorianny

Doodledog

I also agree, FC.

It's good for children to learn those skills in the safe environment of a familiar classroom, but if a child is upset the teacher should find a way to teach the skills without traumatising him further.

IMO different rules apply when the child is grown, and people should choose careers or courses that play to their strengths, rather than expose themselves to unhappiness and distress.

As I posted before the only courses in which oral presentation was actually regarded as an essential for assessment were foreign languages and drama. I wonder there is a lot of information and advice about people who have a stutter. Would you offer them alternative arrangements?

I don't understand what you're saying. 'the only courses in which oral presentation was regarded as essential . . . .' Do you mean in your personal experience? Or are you aware of all courses' assessment methods and professional body requirements?

It doesn't come down to what I would do, as I've said. It comes down to the requirements of professional bodies and university policies. You are also putting words in my mouth when you tell me what I approve of, and that is yet another personal attack. Again, what I approve of is not important.

My point was made in the context of the student who took her life, and who had been introduced to the thread by another poster. As I've said all along, it is tragic, but blaming the presentation she was expected to make is unreasonable. Even her parents said so. Students are young adults, and they and their parents need to take personal responsibility for deciding on courses and career paths.

The whole premise of degrees is based on rewarding some skills and 'eliminating' candidates at every stage. GCSEs, A levels, then university assignments or exams all allow some through to the next stage and leave some behind. Students have only got to university because others with lesser skills have been eliminated.

Maybe it would be fairer if everyone could choose how they wanted to be assessed so that they had the best chance to show what they could do. That would make life a lot easier all round. But it isn't possible without significantly more investment, and even then people would moan that it was too easy to get a degree and they aren't worth what they used to be when only 5% of people got them. Also, admissions would have to take into account things such as personality and teamwork skills if everyone had similar UCAS points. How do you think they would be measured?

If I had the power you seem to think I do, I'd be happy to vote for 'allowing' as many assessment types as there are students, so long as we could have staff to grade them and a means of making them comparable. I'm all for opening access to anyone who can benefit from an education, as I have regularly argued on other threads for years.

But we can't. And as someone who has spent decades at the sharp end, I was simply pointing out that balancing students who want to opt out of what doesn't suit them, peers who complain that it's not fair if they have to do it and others don't, helicopter parents who want special treatment but also professional body accreditation for their adult children, the professional bodies who want their members to know what they are getting when they employ graduates from courses with their 'stamp' on them, university management wanting to keep numbers of students high and staff low, and staff who have to mark increasingly unfeasible numbers of assessments is not easy, and on balance, I feel that anyone scared of presentations should choose a different course, and anyone with very poor MH should consider whether going away to study is the best course of action until it has been brought under control.

There are many adaptations made for people with disabilities to help them to be able to take assessments. That is as it should be. After those adjustments have been made, however, letting people opt out of assignments that others have to sit causes bad feeling and is, IMO, unfair. As I have also said already, there are often options that can be chosen to pick a pathway through a degree that won't involve presentations, and by no means all courses have them (although they are very commonplace). Where there is professional body insistence, the career that the course will lead to will also require graduates to make presentations, or it would not be there.

Would you offer someone who is incapable of doing an essential part of a job pass a degree that says they can? What about a teacher who couldn't bear to speak in front of a class of children because of anxiety or a stutter? Should they be able to write an essay about it instead? Could you justify that to other students, colleagues, Heads, or to the parents of the student when they complained that their child was unemployable? If so, how?

Ooh I remember when it was said teachers in wheelchairs couldn't do the job and when it was said blind teachers couldn't do the job, now apparently its anxiety or a stutter.

Incidentally the information about the only degrees really needing an oral presentation came from a support for students who stammer

There are only limited cases where a university is likely to be justified in insisting on assessments being oral and assessing oral skills, if the student would prefer it to be in writing. Examples of these exceptions are foreign language oral assessments, and performing arts courses

www.stammeringlaw.org.uk/education/university-college/oral-exams-adjustments/oral-exams-rules/.

I think these discussions are actually applicable and interesting as far as the thread is concerned because they reveal that much as we may believe disability rights are applied and protected by law, there are still individuals involved in education, at all levels who fail to understand, appreciate, or apply the social model of disability, and cling to the old concept that one size fits all and the individual needs to change not the system.

Again, Aveline, I apologise for the hijack. None of what I have said about universities applies to a 9 year old boy, and I have every sympathy for him, and for you, who is justified in worrying about him

Glorianny

Doodledog

I also agree, FC.

It's good for children to learn those skills in the safe environment of a familiar classroom, but if a child is upset the teacher should find a way to teach the skills without traumatising him further.

IMO different rules apply when the child is grown, and people should choose careers or courses that play to their strengths, rather than expose themselves to unhappiness and distress.

As I posted before the only courses in which oral presentation was actually regarded as an essential for assessment were foreign languages and drama. I wonder there is a lot of information and advice about people who have a stutter. Would you offer them alternative arrangements?

I don't understand what you're saying. 'the only courses in which oral presentation was regarded as essential . . . .' Do you mean in your personal experience? Or are you aware of all courses' assessment methods and professional body requirements?

It doesn't come down to what I would do, as I've said. It comes down to the requirements of professional bodies and university policies. You are also putting words in my mouth when you tell me what I approve of, and that is yet another personal attack. Again, what I approve of is not important.

My point was made in the context of the student who took her life, and who had been introduced to the thread by another poster. As I've said all along, it is tragic, but blaming the presentation she was expected to make is unreasonable. Even her parents said so. Students are young adults, and they and their parents need to take personal responsibility for deciding on courses and career paths.

The whole premise of degrees is based on rewarding some skills and 'eliminating' candidates at every stage. GCSEs, A levels, then university assignments or exams all allow some through to the next stage and leave some behind. Students have only got to university because others with lesser skills have been eliminated.

Maybe it would be fairer if everyone could choose how they wanted to be assessed so that they had the best chance to show what they could do. That would make life a lot easier all round. But it isn't possible without significantly more investment, and even then people would moan that it was too easy to get a degree and they aren't worth what they used to be when only 5% of people got them. Also, admissions would have to take into account things such as personality and teamwork skills if everyone had similar UCAS points. How do you think they would be measured?

If I had the power you seem to think I do, I'd be happy to vote for 'allowing' as many assessment types as there are students, so long as we could have staff to grade them and a means of making them comparable. I'm all for opening access to anyone who can benefit from an education, as I have regularly argued on other threads for years.

But we can't. And as someone who has spent decades at the sharp end, I was simply pointing out that balancing students who want to opt out of what doesn't suit them, peers who complain that it's not fair if they have to do it and others don't, helicopter parents who want special treatment but also professional body accreditation for their adult children, the professional bodies who want their members to know what they are getting when they employ graduates from courses with their 'stamp' on them, university management wanting to keep numbers of students high and staff low, and staff who have to mark increasingly unfeasible numbers of assessments is not easy, and on balance, I feel that anyone scared of presentations should choose a different course, and anyone with very poor MH should consider whether going away to study is the best course of action until it has been brought under control.

There are many adaptations made for people with disabilities to help them to be able to take assessments. That is as it should be. After those adjustments have been made, however, letting people opt out of assignments that others have to sit causes bad feeling and is, IMO, unfair. As I have also said already, there are often options that can be chosen to pick a pathway through a degree that won't involve presentations, and by no means all courses have them (although they are very commonplace). Where there is professional body insistence, the career that the course will lead to will also require graduates to make presentations, or it would not be there.

Would you offer someone who is incapable of doing an essential part of a job pass a degree that says they can? What about a teacher who couldn't bear to speak in front of a class of children because of anxiety or a stutter? Should they be able to write an essay about it instead? Could you justify that to other students, colleagues, Heads, or to the parents of the student when they complained that their child was unemployable? If so, how?

Most parents are able to contact the child’s teacher via their work email. In fact in some schools, this is the recommended method for making the initial contact. This works well for parents who work, with the teacher then perhaps offering to ring the parent if it is deemed necessary.

Once children move to a high school, the distance involved could well prevent the parent from having a quick word so emailing works better at that stage.