Public speaking

Do you know, Glorianny or trisher or whatever else you call yourself, why do you get so much pleasure out of criticising people for things they haven’t said or twisting things they have said to fit what you want them to say.
It’s nothing to do with this thread, but you keep doing it -so why?

I wish they didn’t force children to do this. I was an extremely shy child and being forced to give presentations or speeches was not helpful in any way. I outgrew my shyness by growing up and experiencing life without the “help” of these forced situations. I’m a retired teacher!

Mollygo

G
Would you offer them alternative arrangements?
It already happens. Do keep up!

But Doodledogdoesn't approve of adaptations for anyone with anxiety Mollygo so why should someone with a stammer be accommodated.?
I didn't say they weren't by the way just asked if Doodledog approved of adaptations.
Still thanks for doing what my mum termed "picking me up before I fell down"

G
Would you offer them alternative arrangements?
It already happens. Do keep up!

Doodledog

I also agree, FC.

It's good for children to learn those skills in the safe environment of a familiar classroom, but if a child is upset the teacher should find a way to teach the skills without traumatising him further.

IMO different rules apply when the child is grown, and people should choose careers or courses that play to their strengths, rather than expose themselves to unhappiness and distress.

As I posted before the only courses in which oral presentation was actually regarded as an essential for assessment were foreign languages and drama. I wonder there is a lot of information and advice about people who have a stutter. Would you offer them alternative arrangements?

I also agree, FC.

It's good for children to learn those skills in the safe environment of a familiar classroom, but if a child is upset the teacher should find a way to teach the skills without traumatising him further.

IMO different rules apply when the child is grown, and people should choose careers or courses that play to their strengths, rather than expose themselves to unhappiness and distress.

It’s not necessarily the end of the world for a child being expected to speak to the 20 / 30 children he spends all day every day with.

Unless it really is a problem; and in that case a parent or guardian needs to speak with the teacher involved, so that the child’s needs can be catered for.
Which they absolutely would be.

I think that most posters will agree with this summary

Yes indeed FC

trisher

But you never answered my query about why more managers are acceptable in education but castigated in the NHS

Why would I? I don’t understand your
Why are more managers acceptable in education?
To which more managers are you referring?

Gabrielle56

???!! Why was a nine years old forced to partake anyway? R u in UK?

Op is in Scotland.
It’s not necessarily the end of the world for a child being expected to speak to the 20 / 30 children he spends all day every day with.

Unless it really is a problem; and in that case a parent or guardian needs to speak with the teacher involved, so that the child’s needs can be catered for.
Which they absolutely would be.

I think that most posters will agree with this summary

Mollygo

^I notice you haven't bothered to look at the report I linked to earlier and the discrepancy between the North and South^

You’re right I didn’t. I was too busy enjoying your obvious ignorance of life in present day primaries anywhere in the country, your use of ‘gentrification’ to describe any words you don’t like and your claims about knowing what those ‘up North’ know as b******t without the slightest knowledge of where I live and work.
Being qualified (by living up North) at recognising b******t, I could certainly recognise yours.🤣🤣

But if it is true it doesn't matter because it doesn't fit your narrow perceptions. As I said had you looked at the link and the map we might have had an interesting discussion as to why so few reports came from the North (and as you won't look you will just have to accept my word for it).
Is it for example linked to funding?
The North didn't respond.
That isn't my perception it is simply true.

"Gentrification" is an expression I used because the term "bursar" has always been linked to private schools and to Universities in the UK.

But you never answered my query about why more managers are acceptable in education but castigated in the NHS

And the "character building" rubbish is just that- rubbish! Trying new things when we're aware that we're going to maybe fail but it's no big deal is fine, but a child? Never ! They're not equipped psychologically to cope with what can be a very public humiliation , and this should never be enforced on kids under say 15 at least. Dangerous and Ill advised.

???!! Why was a nine years old forced to partake anyway? R u in UK?

I notice you haven't bothered to look at the report I linked to earlier and the discrepancy between the North and South

You’re right I didn’t. I was too busy enjoying your obvious ignorance of life in present day primaries anywhere in the country, your use of ‘gentrification’ to describe any words you don’t like and your claims about knowing what those ‘up North’ know as b******t without the slightest knowledge of where I live and work.
Being qualified (by living up North) at recognising b******t, I could certainly recognise yours.🤣🤣

Helenlouise3

My 10 year old granddaughter had to do this last year, but as she was so nervous, she was allowed to do it just in front of the teacher. She had to do it again a few weeks ago and this time practised loads of times in front of mam and dad and us. She didn't really enjoy doing it, but managed in front of a class of 25. She was chuffed to bits that she managed it and to be fair the teacher told her that she'd come on in leaps and bounds since last year

That's good to hear, Helenlouise. Most people don't enjoy public speaking, but like most things, if it's introduced gradually it can be less scary, and some people will come to like it.

I was rubbish at sport at school, and particularly feared the high jump, as I panicked when I ran towards the jump - I don't think I ever got beyond 2'6", however hard I tried. Seeing the other children lined up watching made it even worse. I dreaded PE lessons, and never got any better at sport in general and the high jump in particular.

In those days there was no question of my being allowed to do something different, or of lowering the bar to something I could manage. The thinking was that everyone is good at something, and someone who wasn't good at other subjects would get the chance to be good at sport, which they couldn't be unless someone (eg me) was bad at it.

I'm in no way saying that that is a compassionate or constructive way to teach - as I say, I've never gained a love of sport - but there is some truth in it, and unless someone is bad at everything, it does no harm to learn where one's weaknesses lie, as well as one's strengths. If a reluctant speaker is praised for making the effort, even if the speech itself isn't very good, or the high jumper can be credited for being able to step over a bar 6 inches off the floor, maybe both will learn that effort is as important as ability?

REXF - doing things we don't want to do CAN be character building but can equally be soul destroying. Generalisations in the world of social psychology need to be backed up by numerous randomly controlled experiments and I know for certain that being forced to stand up as a child and speak in front of others is not significantly correlated with the development of future confidence. I agree completely with the idea of hurdles, achievements and development but education is just that, education and not training - a child with Generalised Anxiety Disorder (presenting merely as shy at the age of 9) can be irreparably damaged not developed by having to take the stage. There's more than one way for teachers to examine whether educational and behavioural objectives have been achieved and unfortunately some schools seem not to be sufficiently enlightened in their educational leadership to think outside the box and work in the true interests of the children in their care.

Mollygo

Via your comments, you evidently know even less about school administration than I thought Glorianny, and I didn’t think you actually knew much.

All you’ve just posted about collecting children and using that as a chance to speak to a teacher has been already mentioned, so you have picked up some valid information at least. Well done.

Parents who can’t get into school to pick their children up can and sometimes do send a note, but usually call at the office (and are admitted after pressing the buzzer and declaring who they are ever since Dunblane), or ring the school.
Are you still saying the phone calls are not taken by the office staff (bursar/office manager/ school business manager/administration manager/ admin assistant etc.) and passed on to the appropriate person if available or used to make an appointment? 🤣🤣🤣

No phone calls have always been taken by the school secretary (or the TA parachuted in to do the job, or even a year 6 child tasked with phone answering as part of their spoken English requirement ). Of course parents ring the buzzer and are admitted - (child answers "You will have to wait while I find a responsible adult-I always loved that one).
That 's slightly different to your "parents walking into the reception area" scenario.
I love the way you change tack when it suits you.

Nothing but nothing beats open communication between parent and teacher.

And however good someone may be and whatever name they may choose to call themselves, their job should never be regarded as essential to that communication.

I notice you haven't bothered to look at the report I linked to earlier and the discrepancy between the North and South reporting. Too much effort perhaps.

My 10 year old granddaughter had to do this last year, but as she was so nervous, she was allowed to do it just in front of the teacher. She had to do it again a few weeks ago and this time practised loads of times in front of mam and dad and us. She didn't really enjoy doing it, but managed in front of a class of 25. She was chuffed to bits that she managed it and to be fair the teacher told her that she'd come on in leaps and bounds since last year

Via your comments, you evidently know even less about school administration than I thought Glorianny, and I didn’t think you actually knew much.

All you’ve just posted about collecting children and using that as a chance to speak to a teacher has been already mentioned, so you have picked up some valid information at least. Well done.

Parents who can’t get into school to pick their children up can and sometimes do send a note, but usually call at the office (and are admitted after pressing the buzzer and declaring who they are ever since Dunblane), or ring the school.
Are you still saying the phone calls are not taken by the office staff (bursar/office manager/ school business manager/administration manager/ admin assistant etc.) and passed on to the appropriate person if available or used to make an appointment? 🤣🤣🤣

Mollygo

But the north does have bursars. Just because you work at a school that only has a lowly paid secretary, (and I’ve yet to find a school that only has a lowly paid ‘secretary’ nowadays), it doesn’t mean that no other schools in the north have bursars or school business managers or administration assistants or anybody the variety of titles which mean they do more than just secretarial work.

Love your ‘gentrification’. A rather snobby way of explaining words that seem to make you feel uncomfortable.

If you’ve worked in a school recently, you would know that phone calls go to the office, so that the person can be directed to the appropriate member of staff or arrange an appointment. Visitors to the school are greeted by the office staff (bursar/office manager/ school business manager/administration manager/ admin assistant etc,) and directed to the appropriate place, member of staff or enabled to arrange an appointment.
The office staff (bursar/office manager/ school business manager/administration manager/ admin assistant etc,
also respond to parents arriving to collect a child early. All this in addition to the financial and other tasks necessary to keep a school running.
As for them acting as a means of communication between parents teachers and head teachers, perhaps that's one of the great problems with primary education today
The more you say about that, the more obvious it is that you don’t understand the communication, but that’s your problem.
They aren’t like GP receptionists, they don’t make decisions about who you can see and when and what for.
At your school, are you saying that parents walk into the reception area, are ignored by your lowly paid ‘secretary’ and the head senses their presence and immediately abandons phone calls, meetings, dealing with children etc. to go and deal with every parent who arrives? I don’t believe it.

Of course I understand communication. Just as you should know that since Covid most primary schools require children to be brought into the playground where their class teachers or a TA greet them, and to be escorted into the playground at home time, when they are seen to be collected by an appropriate adult. That actually most classroom problems can be tackled by a teacher who speaks to a parent as the children are collected, or a parent who speaks to a teacher, and asks for a meeting, then, or when the teacher can manage. And that that remains the most successful means of caring and providing for the average child. Of course there are problems that require more in depth meetings, of course some parents don't collect their children so might have problems with this.

Anyone who thinks that a secretary or head needs to always be involved is simply mistaken.

Anyone who thinks parents go into any school reception area hasn't taken a child to school since Covid and possibly since the Dunblane shooting.

Education isn't just about delivering lessons. It's about communicating a child's needs and difficulties and that is best done by direct contact with parents.
Although I have worked in schools where that wasn't possible because of threats and violence those cases are very rare.

As I said Managers making out they are necessary where they aren't isn't helpful. School secretaries managed for years and always knew they were there to facilitate not to manage teachers and parents.

I really don't agree with forcing something really, really uncomfortable onto a child.
It used to take me every bit of courage I had to say "yes miss" when the register was called.

People have different strengths and abilities, and extrovert isn't 'better' than introvert.

It is a very real phobia and I experienced it so I know. As a young child I had loads of confidence loved reading in class acting etc etc, couldn’t wait to get on stage and then at 13 I was chosen to give assembly as an experiment although I knew the head mistress was not keen on me but she allowed it. Well half way through the Bible reading I looked up and saw the school looking at me in rapt attention and I completely lost it and started laughing. I could not go on. The head beamingly put her arm round me and said she’d give me a house mark for trying. I have not trusted myself giving speech since. I even did drama at uni to overcome it but I didn’t as soon as I faced a crowd I was incapacitated by fear. It is visceral it’s not rational. If it is affecting him physically it is cruel to force him.

I had to do this in the 70s (in Scotland) so it's not a new thing. I still remember a couple of my presentations; budgerigars and how to make a proper cup of tea 🙄, I'm sure my classmates were enthralled.

your grandson would benefit from drama after school. Maybe on a Saturday. It’s particularly good for shy children. If you can find someone that teaches lamda or English speaking board, he will be encouraged and gradually get over this fear. My sons are Doctors and often thank me for this as they were able to do presentations any time as a result of this. Failing this, just acting singing and dancing will get him used to performing to an audience as part of a big friendly group

I have always been the same, I'm a social worker so have often had to present cases in court etc & I found I developed a social worker face, a sort of professional manner in which I could do it. Could he learn a similar persona at school? Maybe starting with tiny bits read from a paper?

Why not discuss with the teacher, as a parent, just taking children out of school is not the answer surely. So you can run away from everything that may upset you is what that teaches.