Public speaking

I think this thread only proves that, unless you have experienced a real fear of public speaking - and I don’t mean just the nerves that many people feel - but sheer terror to the point of feeling sick, shaky and as if you’re about to faint - then you can’t possibly understand how it feels, or understand that being forced to do so does not build confidence, but as others have said, breaks it and your self-esteem along with it.

It sounds awful, and very institutional.

When my own child was struggling at university I made the decision to go and get her and bring her home as I was very concerned that she would not survive it. Best thing I did, she’s done loads of presentations in an international stage now and is a confident young lady. I don’t think blaming others for the actions of your child is right. People bend over backwards nowadays and some people should not be at university at that time in their lives. It’s incredibly sad I know, but it can’t all be about a presentation.
Thanks, Nanatonoone. That's exactly what I was getting at, in my comments about the university suicide. It goes without saying that it was tragic - truly awful - but if giving presentation is unlikely to be enough to make someone take her own life.

I feel for the parents, and of course they want an inquiry into what happened, but they did acknowledge that there was more to this than the assessment methods, and didn't blame the university on that score. It is simply nor realistic (or reasonable) to expect students to have differentiated assessment, and whatever Glorianny claims, it is nothing to do with being uncaring or paying lip service to Equal Opps. That was simply a vicious personal attack. At graduate level (which is not the same as a primary school) people are there to be measured against one another in an objective manner. I don't believe that education should be simply training for work, but employers do expect to know that someone with a degree in X is capable of doing what the Learning Outcomes state. If they employ someone whose degree says that they can deliver presentations when they can't, the employer is being misled. Other students also deserve fairness, and it is not fair to ask some to do things and not others. As I said upthread, professional bodies have a stake in many courses, and will withdraw accreditation if the things they ask for are withdrawn. If more parents took responsibility for their student children, and recognised that some are simply not ready for independence, or not cut out for the stress of a university course, their children might be happier, and there might be fewer mental health crises amongst students. Too many seem to take as read that their children are entitled to a degree, but want them to be judged by different standards from other students, and they don't understand that this is not possible. IMO you did the right thing by your child in bringing her home, instead of leaving her struggling and blaming others for her unhappiness.

Of course that is different from school. Nine year olds are not young adults, and shouldn't be measured against one another in the same way. There is no reason for a distressed child to be made to do something that has brought him to tears, when he could be introduced to the activity gradually, and lear to do it a step at a time. Again, I hope it all gets sorted out in as untraumatic a way as possible, Aveline, and I'm sorry for the diversion of the thread into a discussion of the university situation.

I’m sure the posters on here who think that presentations at school should be compulsory have their own other insecurities, things that some people take in their stride but no one could force them to do.

Thank you night owl. That's just what I'm thinking.
It would be lovely to think it would build his confidence but, as we have read, for some children it does the exact opposite.
His teacher is a newly qualified young man. I'm not sure exactly how sympathetic he is.

What did the school say when the matter was raised with them? It seems a miserable time for a nine year old -or in any other age group having to worry about this.

Aveline is there a Teaching Assistant in the class?
This is exactly the sort of thing that they are there for to help with

I haven’t read all the responses so apologies if I’m repeating something that’s already been said.
Can the teacher build the little lad’s confidence by building this up in stages?
First of all just telling the teacher, then next time maybe a small group. Doing it whilst sitting at his desk, on the mat or wherever the group is assembled and so on.
I’ve never liked standing in front of a group of people but will happily contribute round the table. It’s that feeling of all eyes upon you no matter how good your content is.
Good luck to this lad, I hope his confidence grows.

If parents can manage it, groups like Stagecoach, junior drama groups and what was called “elocution” lessons in the old days can help children’s confidence.
Whilst enjoying themselves, it can ‘bring them out’ as it were and a situation like this, although not particularly pleasant, will not be so terrifying.

I don't get it. We grew up doing it, our kids and grandkids have done it. I don't even ever remember anybody having that much trouble with it. More often than not, it showed who was a class ham. 🤷 Plus, we had plays and other situations where we had to display our speaking skills, for example, math and spelling bees.

His teacher is a newly qualified young man. I'm not sure exactly how sympathetic he is.

In which case he probably hasn't the experience for a more nuanced approach and has much to learn. Teacher Training just gets you started, the real learning starts when you actually do the job. He will also have the pressure of not failing too as he will be on probation.
Maybe ask for a meeting with the Head and take in some ideas of how best to manage this child's fears.
I feel strongly that we should not automatically give in to fears but find strategies to face them. That might mean doing it in bitesize chunks to help someone get to the main event!

Doodledog

*When my own child was struggling at university I made the decision to go and get her and bring her home as I was very concerned that she would not survive it. Best thing I did, she’s done loads of presentations in an international stage now and is a confident young lady. I don’t think blaming others for the actions of your child is right. People bend over backwards nowadays and some people should not be at university at that time in their lives. It’s incredibly sad I know, but it can’t all be about a presentation.*
Thanks, Nanatonoone. That's exactly what I was getting at, in my comments about the university suicide. It goes without saying that it was tragic - truly awful - but if giving presentation is unlikely to be enough to make someone take her own life.

I feel for the parents, and of course they want an inquiry into what happened, but they did acknowledge that there was more to this than the assessment methods, and didn't blame the university on that score. It is simply nor realistic (or reasonable) to expect students to have differentiated assessment, and whatever Glorianny claims, it is nothing to do with being uncaring or paying lip service to Equal Opps. That was simply a vicious personal attack. At graduate level (which is not the same as a primary school) people are there to be measured against one another in an objective manner. I don't believe that education should be simply training for work, but employers do expect to know that someone with a degree in X is capable of doing what the Learning Outcomes state. If they employ someone whose degree says that they can deliver presentations when they can't, the employer is being misled. Other students also deserve fairness, and it is not fair to ask some to do things and not others. As I said upthread, professional bodies have a stake in many courses, and will withdraw accreditation if the things they ask for are withdrawn. If more parents took responsibility for their student children, and recognised that some are simply not ready for independence, or not cut out for the stress of a university course, their children might be happier, and there might be fewer mental health crises amongst students. Too many seem to take as read that their children are entitled to a degree, but want them to be judged by different standards from other students, and they don't understand that this is not possible. IMO you did the right thing by your child in bringing her home, instead of leaving her struggling and blaming others for her unhappiness.

Of course that is different from school. Nine year olds are not young adults, and shouldn't be measured against one another in the same way. There is no reason for a distressed child to be made to do something that has brought him to tears, when he could be introduced to the activity gradually, and lear to do it a step at a time. Again, I hope it all gets sorted out in as untraumatic a way as possible, Aveline, and I'm sorry for the diversion of the thread into a discussion of the university situation.

Doodledog it really isn't a personal attack to think that you should be aware that adjustments must be made to assessments to cater for students with a disability. That this is a legal requirement and that any university that fails to provide proper adjustments is in danger of having legal action taken against them.

It is commonly recognised that only language courses and drama courses can insist that an oral presentation is a necessary element of the course and that adjustments to any assessment, including a written option ,should be made for anyone who has, say a stutter.The same adjustments would apply to anyone with a mental health disability, who felt an oral presentation would negatively impact on their health.

I could take your insistence that as a primary school teacher I can have little knowledge of the workings of HE and universities as disparaging. But actually I think it's just a joke. Thankfully the younger people I know working in HE and the disability rights trainers I've met have completely different attitudes. As for my knowledge well part of it comes from challenging discrimination in the very institutions you seem to think I know nothing about.

Doodledog

It's the sort of thing that gets so much easier with practice, so I can see no harm in getting children to do it in a safe and supportive environment from a young age. Too many people learn early on to give in to the urge to stay in their comfort zone, and never gain the ability to deal with difficult situations.

The skill for the teacher is in with making the situation as easy as possible - maybe starting with a group effort where everyone has a small part - and building towards an individual presentation. As a parent I would have wanted to explore why a child would get so hysterical about a class activity. Is there something else going on at school that made him so upset? Poor little chap - he shouldn't be going through that at all.

It's not just sales people who need to present, though - most people in white-collar jobs will have to speak up in meetings as a minimum - and an inability to do any form of public speaking is a drawback in life as well as in work. Opting out won't make it get easier for him, and an expectation of being able to avoid doing things we find uncomfortable isn't a good lesson to learn either, IMO.

Not sure I agree that it becomes easier with practice. I had to do lots of presentations for the qualifications I have and the last was as awful as the first.
I also have horrible memories of having to talk in front of the class about a given topic. Horrid.
Why we insist that everyone has to do these tasks I don't know. People who hate these things won't be made to like them and shouldn't be forced. Regardless of age.

As a teacher, I always wanted my pupils to succeed. To that end, I would change and adapt learning situations which helped them succeed. I find it hard to hear people saying "just get on with it" or, "I had to do it and it didn't do me any harm." The ability to present is a skill which should be taught, not just assumed. What teaching has this wee boy had to help him prepare for it? And, like any other skill, he should have been learning it since he started school. Talking to a shoulder partner, then in threes, then taking turns etc. All this before standing in front of a class. That is the end result. Has he learned how to research, take notes, prepare a presentation? What feedback has he had and support has he had? I would be interested to know.

He did the research himself and his Mum helped him write it up. He's also practised it with her and his brother. He's not done it yet as he now has an agonising wait till next week after it was deferred on Monday.

There is absolutely no reason for him to have an ‘agonising wait’
Your gs, daughter or you can speak to the teacher, TA or Head.
Why isn’t this happening?

I feel sick just reading about this. I was painfully shy right up until my twenties and used to blush if anyone spoke to me ( I remember buying green foundation in an attempt to hide my red face). I still remember being mortified by having to stand up in class and tell everyone about myself at the beginning of term and was bullied about it by some of the girls afterwards. I wish some adults would realise how huge small things can be when you’re young.

We'll have to agree to differ, Glorianna. We both know that saying that you are pleased that I am no longer making policy decisions was a personal attack, as was suggesting that I am 'entitled and entrenched' and that I pay lip service to Equal Opportunities - how could those things be anything other?

Whatever you say, there are professional bodies that would withdraw accreditation from courses which do not fulfil their requirements. It is true that there are 'helicopter' parents who feel that their children should be set different assessments, but what you may not be aware of is that equally there are those who complain that theirs have been disadvantaged when others are given special treatment, and it is impossible to please everyone.

In these days of high fees and a shift in the balance between universities and students, far less is left to the discretion of staff and far more has become the subject of centralised policy. On the whole I think this is a bad thing, as there are times when coming to a separate arrangement is sensible; but hard lines are drawn for the protection of staff from accusations of favouritism or unfairness.

Not all courses have professional body accreditation, and not all courses will have assessment by presentation. Some may offer optional assignments or pathways through modules that allow students to choose an exam or an essay instead - one size does not fit all; but where there is an accredited course with professional body requirements that presentation skills are assessed, there is no alternative. Students would be better advised to choose another course if they feel unable to be assessed in this way, and their if their parents feel the need to involve themselves they would be better advised to withdraw the student or encourage them to do the same as the others on the course.

I don't know if you are suggesting that I am lying, that I don't know my job, or quite what, but I can assure anyone reading that neither is true.

Aveline

No point apparently. It's part of the curriculum.

Why is there no point?
Any teacher worth his/her salt would make allowances and find a way to help your GS.
Your DD should alert the school.

Marydoll

Aveline

No point apparently. It's part of the curriculum.

Why is there no point?
Any teacher worth his/her salt would make allowances and find a way to help your GS.
Your DD should alert the school.

Could they do this with a partner?

DGD was at a small primary school, I have heard her give presentations confidently and well but moving to a huge comprehensive is quite daunting. She said she recently had to give a presentation but with another pupil, they prepared it and gave the speech together.

Aveline I didn't mean family support. I meant teacher support. No small child should have to rely on family to help them with a task which a teacher should teach. It incenses me that children face this without proper teaching and building up skills over a number of years. The school should have a listening and talking policy which is a ladder of skills and details what is expected in each year and how it is built upon. I really feel for your grandson

And as Marydoll says, 'any teacher worth their salt would make allowances.'

Aveline
No point apparently. It's part of the curriculum.
Speaking and listening is important but none of the activities should mean a child panicking and nothing being suggested by the school to solve the problem when it is raised with the teacher or the head.

One strategy is to ask the nervous person (in this case your grandson) what he is scared of. Get him to break it down to the smallest 'chunks' he can. Typical things might be that he's scared that he'll forget what to say, that he's scared that people will laugh, that he's worried that his voice might dry up.

Then you can tell him strategies for dealing with those things if they happen:
He won't forget what to say if he has a script, or a PowerPoint presentation.

It's most unlikely that people will laugh, as he's very good, but also as they will be too busy thinking about their own presentation, or remembering things they wish they'd done better. Also, the teacher will stop anyone laughing.

If his voice dries up he can have a drink of water (assuming that's allowed?) Or he can have a drink before the class, if not.

Most worries like this can be pre-empted and dealt with mentally, so if they do happen they are easier.

As far as I know the requirements of literacy only ask that a child should by the time they leave Key stage 2 (age 11, year 6)a child should be able to speak out publicly, ask questions and contribute to a debate. The process for reaching this goal isn't set in stone and should include things like presenting to a small group rather than a whole class.
Your GS has 2 years before he reaches that goal.