Public speaking

Spot on Doodledog.

If you really want to improve the situation for any children you believe are suffering this way, you need to speak out about the ‘some schools’ you mention polnan.
Ask to see the head, write to the governors, don’t just talk about it on here. Check the information you are getting from each school you have heard where this applies.

Not allowed to go in class or in official break times? Where exactly have you seen or heard about this?

I’m glad to hear this is part of the curriculum. I only remember standing up to read my composition if asked or having to recite a piece of poetry that we’d had to learn. I was quite a shy child but there was never any possibility of getting out of it. My son had to do presentations on a regular basis at his independent school and from a young age. When at university he had to present ideas to groups of local business people and was never fazed by it so I strongly believe that it builds confidence.

When I was called upon to do a talk in public about com-limentery therapies, I was terrified. Then had a bright idea and asked a colleague who was a hypnotherapist if he would do the talk. No he said, but he offered to do hypnotherapy on me. Time for the talk, I stood up and could hear this voice loud and clear, it was me!! I did lots of talks after that. won't help a small child, but its will help with careers?

Could he have done it at home first to quell his fears?? Then he would be prepared to face the class! Or have a good friend by his side so they did a bit each? This problem needs to be discussed with school ! As a retired teacher I would have welcomed parental input

Aveline It’s bad teaching and learning if it isn’t adapted to the various needs of every single student in the class.

It’s called differentiation, and every teacher is expected to do it.
It should be embedded in all planning for every lesson, whether the individual children are SEN, G&T, EAL and everything in between.
It should be evident to the children too.
They should feel safe and secure with their teacher and classmates.
It’s totally unacceptable that he is so distressed.
If your daughter doesn’t get any joy from the teacher, I would contact the Head.

I hope that your Grandson is okay

slightly different, and if anyone takes exception, then I apologise, but speaking of present day "education" is there anyone here who is aware that at some schools children are not allowed to go to the toilet, during class or in official break times.. and... it goes on... so many children, according to some media, are not attending school due to "anxiety issues" is it any wonder?

These young children are sadly pawns in the government's fiddling with the curriculum. teacher's have far less say in what they teach than ever before whilst being unable to adapt inappropriate expectations for each child's unique development. What many folk do not realise is that curricular expectations are being pushed down on younger and younger children and many are simply not yet ready. Yes research and presenting are very useful life skills but they are far from necessary for younger primary age children.

@Aveline I don't want to get bogged down in the rights or wrongs of the situation but I wonder if his parents could ask for him to present to a smaller group of friends on this occasion. It would be a "reasonable adjustment" with a view to building up his confidence.

Are they allowed to take visual aids? These can take the focus off the speaker, and it might make him feel more confident if he can pass something round while he's speaking, or have a photo/chart/map to refer to whilst he's talking.

Yes. He's interested in the topic etc. It's such a shame. His big brother is especially good at presentations and has won the year prize. This lad is just the opposite. Brothers!

Aveline

He has it all beautifully written out. The best he can do is just read it aloud while standing in front of the class.

That does seem the best approach.
Simply look at the paper and read it out clearly.
I hope they don't expect actual presentation skills too.

Is it a topic he is interested in, and knows well?

Not a million miles from what I said earlier, is it?

. . . in the case of presentations they could (as a class) start by something like being asked to stand up when addressing the class, eg answering a question, and take it in stages from there. I doubt they would go from nothing to a full-blown presentation in one go, which would be asking a lot.
Obviously a lot would depend on how much time was available to devote to that part of the syllabus, but a similar approach, which suggests that either you are wrong about my 'paying lip service' to sensitivity to differing abilities, or you see yourself as being insensitive too.

Either way, you have been deeply offensive to me, based on my comments about how in a university situation - one in which students are selected on the basis of their declared ability to complete a course, and are graded on a pre-determined set of skills, which fit a grid that is used by all HE institutions, it is impossible to differentiate between students when it comes to assessments, particularly in these days of high fees and litigious parents, many of whom want preferential treatment for their own children and scream 'unfair' when others appear to be given such treatment.

That sounds a good approach Glorianny but not at DGSs school. It's remembering how awful it was last year that's upsetting him this year. He was just 8 then.
I'll tell him that a whole lot of Grans are wishing him well. Thanks.

If he were in my class he would have been prepared for a single person presentation for many sessions beforehand. So first session a group or pairs presentation. All children must contribute to planning and stand in front of the class but not speak unless they wish to. Next session all children must contribute to presentation but not necessarily by speaking (holding pictures etc). Next session in pairs both children must speak but not necessarily equally. Next equal presentation. Next solo but he can take a friend to stand with him for support. Finally (and this may not happen until he is older) completely solo presentation.
The concept that children will get over their fears if they are just subjected to the same trial every year is not born out by the evidence. It needs proper support to develop skills and overcome fears.

What a ludicrous approach to children. What is it teaching children anyway? - teachers are all powerful, you have to do something that makes you feel sick with nerves, not just before you do it but for weeks in anticipation, and teachers (thereby adults) are not to be trusted to support you (obviously I don’t mean you or his parents Aveline, you are doing your best against a one size fits all system).

Some children just can’t. No amount of practice will make them confident public speakers. Why should they have to be anyway? There are other skills in life and sometimes the quiet ones who speak the least have the most interesting things to say.

That will be a good start, and (I hope) the teacher will encourage him. Next time it will be a bit easier, and so on until he's doing it without a backward glance. Would it help him to know there is a Board of Grans rooting for him?

He has it all beautifully written out. The best he can do is just read it aloud while standing in front of the class.

Would they let him just write it and read it out perhaps? Hiding behind a piece of paper might help and at least he wouldn't forget things. It is comforting to have something to hold, gives you something to do with your hands whilst speaking.

I'm sorry to read that it's been delayed Aveline. I was hoping to read that it was all over.

Has there been a gradual approach to talking to other pupils, or just pushed straight in to maximum exposure?

How crucial a part of the curriculum can it be, at 9 years old?
Could he be allowed stay sitting, instead of standing at the front?

I've seen many people at all levels who have written and/or been involved in disability policies but who just paid lip service to them.
Ah, yet another personal dig. Is that in the spirit of Gransnet? 😂😂

Me too, but that doesn’t apply in my case - not that I expect you to believe it because of your prejudice against me.

You still haven’t explained how you would deal with any of the things I mentioned - are you happy just to insult me but not engage with what I am saying?

How would you do it? Never mind the platitudes - if your grandchild did a presentation and got a lower mark than someone who didn’t (and that person went on to get a first which gave them access to entry to something denied your GC), or if the accreditation of the course your child was on was removed because assessments had changed, so they couldn’t enter their chosen profession would you be so blasé, or would you be demanding your fees back? You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Even if you would sacrifice your children or grandchildren on the altar of equal rights (in which case, why send them to university in the first place, as not everyone is capable of that) there are very many parents who would not, and policies have to be cognisant of that. How would you answer them when they complained that their child had been disadvantaged in favour of another?

I won’t lower myself to personal insults but it’s fair to say that I have known people who are hypocrites in all walks of life, and those who consider themselves experts in all aspects of everything, but that rarely turns out to be true when their comments are questioned. They usually avoid answering.

Visgir1

I can clearly recommend doing this when I was about 9 years old.. We all had to give a presentation as they would call it now. That was mid 1960's. I was terrified but did it..
Hope the little chap is OK.

I remember doing this too, age 9 or maybe 10. I didn’t want to do it, and my friends didn’t either and we were glad when it was over.Poor little boy Aveline things like this are a big deal to kids and will be on their minds.
I remember a little class mate being happy to do it and then forgetting what to say and bursting into tears. Most of us glumly got through it tho.

Doodledog

Glorianny
Of course staff would discuss things with students - you are making ridiculous assumptions based on prejudice, not knowledge.

It has nothing to do with being entrenched or entitled. Any university will have disability policies - I have helped to craft them. My points, which of course you have ignored, are that there are other considerations.

I cba to reiterate them for the benefit of someone as closed-minded as you are, but other readers might consider how they would react when someone says they want to basically take a different course from other students, and that course has been accredited by a professional body who insists on particular skills being assessed. Or how they would ensure that assessment is fair when one person adheres to the assignment as set, and one is given a get-out. Or how they would organise their teams so that people have time to complete marking in different ways. These things don't happen in a vacuum, either. There are QC committees who ensure that assessment across modules and courses are equal, and External Examiners ensure that fairness extends across the sector. However enlightened someone may be, they can't simply alter an assessment for a particular student, except in your head.

I realise that you think you know everything about everything, but universities are not primary schools from the past. I would not presume to tell you how your job used to work, so please refrain from telling me how mine does. I have stepped back from decision-making, but am still employed, albeit part-time, so I am still aware of how things work today, whatever you may think.

(sorry, Aveline. I didn't mean to derail your thread like this, and again, I hope your GS is ok )

That's a bit of a change from
People know before they apply for a course of study or a line of work that it will involve what it involves, and the payoff is the degree or the salary. If they are unable to fulfil their side of the bargain they should choose a different course, or a different job. The whole concept of university is based on elitism. Only those with certain grades can do particular courses, and the people wanting to opt out of things like presentations don't complain about that - their place has been gained on the basis of the skills they have and someone else doesn't, as measured by A level exams, which don't allow people to choose which papers to sit. How is it then fair to expect to get the same qualification as someone who has done the presentation when they haven't, or get the same salary as someone who turns up for the stressful event when they are at home with stress?

As for not criticising primary schools isn't I can't help thinking that teaching children (and I'm not saying that this applies to your grandson, Aveline) that they can just refuse to do things leads to students insisting on alternative assessments, and colleagues staying off when the going gets tough doing just that?

Alternative arrangements when they prevent students from committing suicide would seem petty vital to me.

As for children refusing. If a child was so distressed as to be in tears he would be unlikely to do a decent presentation anyway, so it isn't a question of allowing them to refuse it is a question of ensuring they are able to achieve and properly show what they are able to do and supporting them to do that.

I see a similarity of attitude between someone who thinks students with stress are somehow cheating and that children who are demonstrably upset are somehow refusing to take part in an activity. So actually the level doesn't matter.The commitment to equality of opportunity, the willingness to accommodate needs and the recognition and acknowledgement of disability rights is.
I've seen many people at all levels who have written and/or been involved in disability policies but who just paid lip service to them.
.

Glorianny
Of course staff would discuss things with students - you are making ridiculous assumptions based on prejudice, not knowledge.

It has nothing to do with being entrenched or entitled. Any university will have disability policies - I have helped to craft them. My points, which of course you have ignored, are that there are other considerations.

I cba to reiterate them for the benefit of someone as closed-minded as you are, but other readers might consider how they would react when someone says they want to basically take a different course from other students, and that course has been accredited by a professional body who insists on particular skills being assessed. Or how they would ensure that assessment is fair when one person adheres to the assignment as set, and one is given a get-out. Or how they would organise their teams so that people have time to complete marking in different ways. These things don't happen in a vacuum, either. There are QC committees who ensure that assessment across modules and courses are equal, and External Examiners ensure that fairness extends across the sector. However enlightened someone may be, they can't simply alter an assessment for a particular student, except in your head.

I realise that you think you know everything about everything, but universities are not primary schools from the past. I would not presume to tell you how your job used to work, so please refrain from telling me how mine does. I have stepped back from decision-making, but am still employed, albeit part-time, so I am still aware of how things work today, whatever you may think.

(sorry, Aveline. I didn't mean to derail your thread like this, and again, I hope your GS is ok )

It's compulsory. Part of the curriculum and must be completed.