Neopronouns

You were one of those who used it yourself doodledog

Trans people have nothing to do with it

doodle is this thread about trans people? If so I'll go chat somewhere else

There are times when the sense can be gleaned; but at others it can't.

Take someone with three children, who are all referred to as 'they', to avoid singling out an NB one. If you say 'I spoke to Arabella yesterday about Bob and Caroline's Christmas arrangements, and they are coming to me on Saturday.' it could mean that A is coming on her own, A,B and C are all coming, or that B and C are coming and A is staying behind.

Separating the singular from the plural removes that ambiguity. 'I spoke to A about B and C's arrangements, and she is coming on Saturday' means something very different. A is coming and B and C are not. 'I spoke to A about B and C's arrangements, and B and C are coming' means that A is staying away, and '. . . . 'they' are all coming', where 'they' is known to be plural speaks for itself.

Words matter, and trans ideology means that we are losing the ability to communicate. We no longer know what a woman (or a man) means - even asking that can be considered a leading question - and now there is ambiguity between singular and plural. Taking away (or reducing) the vocabulary we have to express ideas takes away (or reduces) the concepts we can discuss.

As someone with a late teens grandchild who is wanting to change gender, I can endorse how hard it is to remember to use "they" - in my aged mind it is a plural. But I wish to try and respect their wishes, and do my best.

I have told them that I love them dearly and will sometimes get it wrong.

Basically gender neutral pronouns matter and not only do we need them, we all use them.

So it really isn't a case of any demographic of people trying to twist language for their own personal use. It's always been there in our generations and in the age of equality we all need it. All of us.

For the new pronouns people have created, you don't have to use them. So there probably isn't any point worrying about what others prefer... unless you personally know and do want to communicate with them, in which case, is it someone whose feelings you want to hurt? Does it matter if you agree with it? Does it matter if you agree they need it? What matters is who they are as a person and good people are worth a little extra care. Think of it like a nickname which is a term of endearment.. using their chosen pronouns will tell them you respect and care about them

I am happy to say that I feel that at rising 75 I am old enough to continue to use the language I have spoken all my life without all this rubbish !

Neopronouns = codswallop IMO 🥱

FarNorth

^For clarity then: Should it be “I agree with Hattie when they say …..”?^

Only if Hattie wants people to use 'they' in that way.

I agree with your neighbour “when he or she says” but “I agree with a persons neighbour when they say “ is perfectly normal. VS’s examples show how straightforward it can be.

Doodle

Violetsky yes I see what you mean about They cut me up and I would say that. What happens though if someone said I saw a person outside taking to their manager and they indicated they would like a cup of coffee. How would you know if one or two cups of coffee were required?

“ A person” and”a cup of coffee”
If you’d said “Some people” then the “they” is clearly plural and you’d have asked “how many?”

In fact, (apart from mine) there are at least 3 examples of singular use of the pronouns I mentioned on this thread

Which just proves its not worth overthinking

Doodle you used they in singular in the first sentence of your opening post because we all use it all the time without realising. I was doing it long before I ever heard of a changed pronoun.

I'd ask, "one cup or two?"

Violetsky yes I see what you mean about They cut me up and I would say that. What happens though if someone said I saw a person outside taking to their manager and they indicated they would like a cup of coffee. How would you know if one or two cups of coffee were required?

Using someone's chosen pronoun seems perfectly reasonable to me. I think it actually breaks down stereotypes because it assumes that you can't tell just by appearance anyone's gender. "They" also acknowledges that there are people who prefer not to tell you or to define themselves as man or woman.

Neopronouns are used by people on-line, not really in every day life. So I doubt if I will ever need them.

They, them and their have been used in the singular for quite some time.

I guarantee every one of you have used them so.

Not only have we always had gender neutral pronouns but once it was acceptable to use "he" as a gender neutral pronoun and Shakespeare famously said "everyone has their failings" and so called grammatical experts were not pleased. But early feminists were extremelynot pleased for a male pronoun to be considered gender neutral and were not pleased that they could be referred to as "he" yet excluded from many organisations as "women".

They and them has also been used in the singular, well, since before all of us were born. When we do not know the gender of the other person. Examples:

"They cut me up!"

"They sent me an email"

"I asked them what they thought"

Dear readers, we are on an anonymous forum, we do not know who we are talking to. We would easily use they or them in the singular, for example:

Poster 1 "Has anyone seen username? I haven't seen them post for a week"

Poster 2 "yes they were posting this morning"

Poster 1 "were they? Oh I was worried about them"

As the language evolves people are trying out more pronouns, some will probably come into regular use and some won't.

Due to the need for gender neutral pronouns and their use in language, lots of people regularly use they, them or their in singular even when they know the gender of the person they are referring too. As you can probably tell, I am one of those people and despite using both words in the singular here on gransnet even when I know th gender, not a single pedant has pulled me up... because they also do it without realising.

If you are asked to use a pronoun I would oblige as its polite. If you aren't sure of a pronoun, using they, them or their is perfectly acceptable and long understood in the English language (even though people don't seem to notice they are already doing it).

If you are struggling remember those early feminists fighting to bring more pronouns into use and thankfully winning.

For clarity then: Should it be “I agree with Hattie when they say …..”?

Only if Hattie wants people to use 'they' in that way.

It's probably too late, but we do seem to need a better non-binary 3rd person singular pronoun. "They" doesn't work well, does it?
I'd have suggested "heesh" and "heer".
And by the way, when I read modern languages back in the sixties, gender was a grammatical concept. Now, gender means male or female, sort of extending to non-binary. The word for whether a human or animal was male or female was sex, but now that means copulation.
And what about the new Scottish law about 16-year-olds? Another thread I think.

I think I would be more comfortable and hear more common sense in Terry Wogan’s ‘Home For The Bewildered’

I will use whatever pronoun someone wants in their presence, but I was taught not to use pronouns when you know the name. 'She is the cat's mother' was a refrain in my youth.

My friend's daughter is non-binary, and I will use 'they' if I remember, but I will not declare a pronoun for myself, and I will not start to refer to others as 'they' as a way of 'normalising' the term as a singular pronoun.

The assumption behind NB is that everyone else conforms to a binary gender position - ie that they are either stereotypically male or stereotypically female. I don't believe that people fit these stereotypes, so most of us are to some extent NB. We are, however, all either one sex or the other, so our so-called 'gender' preference is irrelevant to anyone other than ourselves.

FarNorth

Many decades ago, some feminists wanted to do away with sexed pronouns and 'co' was suggested as a pronoun for everyone.
Of course no-one took any notice of them.

I will not be using she or he for anyone whom I know to be the opposite, but I would use 'they' for that person if I wanted to be polite , whether in their company or not.

One does sometimes use a 3rd person pronoun when the person concerned is present e.g. "I agree with Hattie when she says...." or in a group situation where the person is there and might overhear you.

For clarity then: Should it be “I agree with Hattie when they say …..”?

AGAA4

I don't want to join in with this wokery unless someone specifically asks me to call them 'they'or similar I will just say as I see.

My approach too.

After all, for all of human history and use of language people have not had much trouble at all distinguishing between the two sexes.

Many decades ago, some feminists wanted to do away with sexed pronouns and 'co' was suggested as a pronoun for everyone.
Of course no-one took any notice of them.

I will not be using she or he for anyone whom I know to be the opposite, but I would use 'they' for that person if I wanted to be polite , whether in their company or not.

One does sometimes use a 3rd person pronoun when the person concerned is present e.g. "I agree with Hattie when she says...." or in a group situation where the person is there and might overhear you.

The pronoun “they” just cannot be used in the singular without causing confusion. Really bad choice and not thought through in my opinion. I think even “he/she” is better or think up a new word completely. Maybe I’m missing something!

Abitbarmy - loved Terry Wogan and his ‘home for the bewildered’. I used to listen to him on my way to work ..

I don't want to join in with this wokery unless someone specifically asks me to call them 'they'or similar I will just say as I see.

www.spiked-online.com/2023/01/16/its-time-to-call-out-the-nonsense-of-nonbinary/amp/

This article (about the Brit awards) is worth a read. It's almost as if the trans ideology is anti-women . You reckon?

The demand for neopronouns is control freakery – control the language people use and you're on the way to controlling their thoughts. It's orwellian claptrap.