Neopronouns

Oh dear now non-binary people are a threat to society!
Who knew??? I must take care not to meet any more of them.
Maybe they will take over the world!!!
Maybe they will stop children identifying and classifying people by gender norms.
Maybe you won't be able to tell who is a boy by what they are wearing!
Maybe boys will wear make up and jewellery but we won't know they are boys.
Maybe girls will wear trousers and shirts and look like boys. Maybe the gender norms which restrict our society will be overwhelmed by non-binary people.
But hang on!!! isn't that what some people want? A society where people are treated equally? A society where gender isn't an issue. Ah well back to the drawing board

Doodledog

Doodledog

Sorry - that was to FN. I wasn't laughing at the scenario you describe, Rosie.

You're OK, I guessed that.

Doodledog

Sorry - that was to FN. I wasn't laughing at the scenario you describe, Rosie.

Glorianny

Ok so then it's opened up to questions (I knew you'd try to avoid using they) You are asked "Where does she surf?" Bobby has made it very clear to you that their non-binary status is important. Do you correct or ignore the mistake?

Firstly you didn't expressly state that Bobby has made it very clear to you that their non-binary status is important. So okay, I then introduce Bobby as this is Bobby who has 3 dogs, loves to surf and reads detective novels, and identifies as non-binary and wants you to use they/them pronouns if you need to use a third party pronoun
As for the "Where does she surf?", I'd consider that rude, Bobby is here, ask Bobby, I have no idea. This line of questioning immediately made me think of does he take sugar?

No the bullies, encouraged by Bobby's incitement (the lead bully) wouldn't be trying to "help" their victim, they'd be doing what bullies enjoy, being nasty, and gang nastiness is so much safer than doing it as an individual. What if the situation was that a transwoman in the group had people coming up all through the day to explain that women and girls feel threatened by their presence in female only spaces such as toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards etc You'd approve of these people trying to kindly help and educate the transwoman?

I'm outraged Doodledog that you are minimising the very real threat from Lizards.

Glorianny

OK so you refuse to use Bobby's chosen pronoun, don't correct the questioner and keep quiet -for whatever reason.

Bobby then introduces you as a biased woman who won't use their chosen pronoun and who doesn't recognise non-binary identities. They ask the group to be kind to you, to try and help you through your difficulties but to explain to you whenever they can how important it is to acknowledge others.
They get a round of applause. You get a lot of dirty looks and people coming up to you all day wanting to explain non-binary to you
So was it worth it? When just saying "they" would have meant it was all over in the few minutes you were speaking?

You go to a work meeting, and are asked to do a remarkably dated icebreaker involving introducing other people and choosing what to say about them on their behalf.

Rather than make a fuss you go along with it and find you are asked to introduce Bobby, who is big in the Stop the Lizards Society. This has absolutely nothing to do with your work, which is in the IT department of a local council, but you mention this without comment or implication in your introduction, as Bobby was keen that you do so, and you have the sense to know that getting others to decide what to reveal about colleagues is intrusive, which is why nobody has done it since 1997, so have asked for suggestions that would be non-threatening.

Bobby then introduces you as an ignorant woman who doesn't understand that society is under threat, but asks the group to 'be kind' and help you to understand that you really need to go along with their take on the world, as it is very important that their views are recognised. You assume that HR will support you as this is ridiculous, but then remember that Alex, the HR manager, has been off with stress for months, and Pat, the trendy young temp, is nodding along with Bobby's remarks.

Bobby gets a round of applause, although many colleagues are looking very uncomfortable about joining in, and you start to feel nervous. You get a lot of dirty looks, and people come up to you all day, hassling you about your beliefs and forcing their views down your throat, particularly when in the earshot of Pat, who is making notes. You decide to skip the networking session at the end of the meeting and book a taxi back to the office, asking the driver to meet you at the back door.

Was it worth it? Just agreeing that lizards are colonising the earth would have saved you all that discomfort, not to mention the taxi fare and the cost of getting your own coffee. In the taxi you look up a recruitment agency on your phone, and are dismayed to find that their website proudly displays a badge from the Stop The Lizards Society's partnership scheme. . .

Patronising as well as bullying.

'Just do what you're told and you won't get hurt.'

I've said I'm okay with using 'they' for everyone, not just for a select few.
Either we use pronouns related to sex or we don't.

Yes we're back to toilets, which are not unimportant, also back to hospital wards, prisons, sports.

FarNorth

Glorianny

Ok so then it's opened up to questions (I knew you'd try to avoid using they) You are asked "Where does she surf?" Bobby has made it very clear to you that their non-binary status is important. Do you correct or ignore the mistake?

"Bobby prefers the pronoun 'they' because of identifying as Non-binary. Bobby surfs off the north coast of Scotland ."

Irrelevant Bobby still introduces you as the woman who won't use their chosen pronoun. You still spend the day having non-binary explained to you.

FarNorth

What a bunch of bullies.

How is it bullying? You could be seen as the bully because you refused to listen to Bobby. They are trying to help you.

Glorianny

Ok so then it's opened up to questions (I knew you'd try to avoid using they) You are asked "Where does she surf?" Bobby has made it very clear to you that their non-binary status is important. Do you correct or ignore the mistake?

"Bobby prefers the pronoun 'they' because of identifying as Non-binary. Bobby surfs off the north coast of Scotland ."

FarNorth

^All they want is for you to accept that they choose to be non-binary, that they don't think you have a right to force them to declare as "him" or "her" and accept "they" as their pronoun in every day life. Nothing to do with services or circumstances where their sex may be need to be known. Just pronouns in everyday life.^

If it's 'just pronouns' why do workplaces have policy that 'non-binary' people can use the changing & toilet facilities for either sex, as they feel at the moment?

If it's 'just pronouns' why is there a call for 'non-binary' people to be able to change (falsify) their birth certificates and other documents by placing X as their sex designator?

If 'just pronouns' were as you say, Glorianny, and everyone was being honest about their sex in situations where it's important, then I'd support the use of one set of pronouns for everyone.

It isn't as you say, though, and people are using wrong-sex pronouns and non-binary pronouns as part of concealing which sex they are, or insisting that their 'gender identity' be treated as their sex, even in situations where it is important.

For that reason I won't knowingly use incorrect pronouns in any situation.

I recently saw an interview with Sarah Phillimore and Robin Moira White.
Sarah used Robin's name, rather than a pronoun. It sounded less awkward than might be thought.

Are we back to toilets again? And I'm afraid non-binary people will generally use toilets designated for either sex, because if they use one you might imagine they were that sex. But providing a toilet which could be for either usually solves that.

There are countries which recognise non-binary as an identity and which have an x as the sex designator. After all does it really matter what sex you are when you go through passport control?
The instances where you need to know anyone's sex are very few.
But why is "they" incorrect? If you really aren't sure from the appearance If you have any doubts as to the gender, if the person then says they prefer "they" what is incorrect? If you used "he" and they were female it would be incorrect, so why not use they?.

What a bunch of bullies.

OK so you refuse to use Bobby's chosen pronoun, don't correct the questioner and keep quiet -for whatever reason.

Bobby then introduces you as a biased woman who won't use their chosen pronoun and who doesn't recognise non-binary identities. They ask the group to be kind to you, to try and help you through your difficulties but to explain to you whenever they can how important it is to acknowledge others.
They get a round of applause. You get a lot of dirty looks and people coming up to you all day wanting to explain non-binary to you
So was it worth it? When just saying "they" would have meant it was all over in the few minutes you were speaking?

Mollygo

Love your ever reiterated scenarios which you set up to try and prove your point. I’ll decide when I’m ever in that situation.
How do non binary people dress? As male or female? If Bobby’s sporting a beard, I might explain that PCOS often causes that for unfortunate females, but Bobby simply hasn’t shaved today.
If Bobby looks like a man, I’d use ‘he’. If Bobby looked like a female I’d use she. Or I’d simply use the name again. Bobby of course would be far too polite to make anyone feel uncomfortable by insisting on a particular word. (I’ve only met polite NB people and they were quite relaxed about pronouns. You make it sound as if all NB people are aggressive, which is rather unkind to them. )
Equally, I wouldn’t insist that Bobby refer to me as Her Ladyship , that being my preferred ‘pronoun’ . . .

Just because your narrow world doesn't include anyone whose sex is difficult to judge by appearance doesn't mean there aren't any people like that Mollygo I've met quite a few. They are lovely people you just have to ask which pronoun they prefer and some choose non-binary

All they want is for you to accept that they choose to be non-binary, that they don't think you have a right to force them to declare as "him" or "her" and accept "they" as their pronoun in every day life. Nothing to do with services or circumstances where their sex may be need to be known. Just pronouns in everyday life.

If it's 'just pronouns' why do workplaces have policy that 'non-binary' people can use the changing & toilet facilities for either sex, as they feel at the moment?

If it's 'just pronouns' why is there a call for 'non-binary' people to be able to change (falsify) their birth certificates and other documents by placing X as their sex designator?

If 'just pronouns' were as you say, Glorianny, and everyone was being honest about their sex in situations where it's important, then I'd support the use of one set of pronouns for everyone.

It isn't as you say, though, and people are using wrong-sex pronouns and non-binary pronouns as part of concealing which sex they are, or insisting that their 'gender identity' be treated as their sex, even in situations where it is important.

For that reason I won't knowingly use incorrect pronouns in any situation.

I recently saw an interview with Sarah Phillimore and Robin Moira White.
Sarah used Robin's name, rather than a pronoun. It sounded less awkward than might be thought.

Love your ever reiterated scenarios which you set up to try and prove your point. I’ll decide when I’m ever in that situation.
How do non binary people dress? As male or female? If Bobby’s sporting a beard, I might explain that PCOS often causes that for unfortunate females, but Bobby simply hasn’t shaved today.
If Bobby looks like a man, I’d use ‘he’. If Bobby looked like a female I’d use she. Or I’d simply use the name again. Bobby of course would be far too polite to make anyone feel uncomfortable by insisting on a particular word. (I’ve only met polite NB people and they were quite relaxed about pronouns. You make it sound as if all NB people are aggressive, which is rather unkind to them. )
Equally, I wouldn’t insist that Bobby refer to me as Her Ladyship , that being my preferred ‘pronoun’ . . .

Ok so then it's opened up to questions (I knew you'd try to avoid using they) You are asked "Where does she surf?" Bobby has made it very clear to you that their non-binary status is important. Do you correct or ignore the mistake?

Bobby, Georgie, Leslie, Hilary, etc. There are a good number of names that have been used for either sex and more are being invented as we speak.

this is Bobby who has 3 dogs, loves to surf and reads detective novels

"This is Bobby".

So you are at a meeting as an ice-breaker the organiser suggests you introduce yourself to the person next to you, find out a few things about them then you will introduce each other to the group. The person next to you is called Bobby and is non-binary. How would you introduce them to the group?

Actually I think for women its utterly understandable, particularly young women who wants to escape sexism, misogyny etc. My view is that it wont make any difference to the oppression they experience but I can understand it.

I can understand how some men want to be women and some women want to be men but non binary perplexes me.
Without wishing to cause offence to anyone, I am a woman I have no idea what it feels like to be a man or how different my feelings and thoughts would be if I were one.
What do people who say they are non binary feel about themselves and how do they know that those feelings make them non binary as opposed to wanting to feel like a woman or a man? How can you be neither one or other. Does anyone have any insight?