Sex education in UK schools but not as we knew it!

Rosie51

^I fully agree she doesn't handle it well, but possibly she has had little training and very little preparation for dealing with such things.^ then she shouldn't pontificate in the way she did.
If I had a child of 12/13 who was asserting they were cat gender (what does that even mean), I'd be seeking help and therapy for the child exactly as I would if my child was obviously anorexic but convinced they were fat. The girls weren't abusive to the other girl, they simply believe the fact that sex is biological and immutable, and that a girl can't be a cat. Do you think those girls should be forced to believe in gender identities, or keep silent? Would you agree with them being compelled to believe in any other person's belief, say Judaism or reincarnation? Should atheists never say they don't believe in any gods for fear of offending those with religious beliefs?

Well said.

Good post, Rosie. I think the 'cat gender' thing throws this into relief as surely even the most died-in-the-wool apologist for so-called 'gender' can't really believe that identifying as a cat is on any sort of spectrum of human normality?

It is, however, a short step from saying that 'gender' is something that can be optional (as opposed to the idea that behaviours commonly associated with gender can be chosen whilst staying in one's own sex), and that anyone can 'be their authentic selves', however inauthentic these 'selves' may be. It's just a continuum.

. . . some stuff about teaching name parts for sexual organs which is happening in some schools. Most teachers would support learning the proper names for things.
I taught my children 'proper names' for things from babyhood, and obviously, I therefore agree that it is a sensible thing to do; but frankly it is not the place of teachers to make those decisions on behalf of parents of young children. When it comes to biology classes, of course children have to know what a penis is, and that it is not a willy or a todger, or whatever it is called at home, as well as the difference between a vagina and a vulva. I do wonder, however, how this can be done when Some People seem to think that a penis is whatever people want it to be, and that men or women can have them.

There seems to be a massive disconnect between wanting schools to dictate about the use of euphemisms, and also being able to teach biologically incorrect information about reproduction and sex. The sexuality aspects of this are frankly appalling, IMO. How is it 'homophobic' to call out someone who 'identifies' as a cat, but not to claim that homosexuality is same-gender, rather than same-sex attraction?

What? No rabbits?

It can be a nightmare for parents, teachers and the youngsters themselves, trying to navigate the dangers of internet porn, coercion and whatever Andrew Tate is blogging. As someone else pointed out, it is almost impossible for the average pupil to say in front of everyone that they wish to opt out of a lesson. Yes, parents should be able to have input/discussion about the content of these lessons with their own schools.

Rosie51

^I fully agree she doesn't handle it well, but possibly she has had little training and very little preparation for dealing with such things.^ then she shouldn't pontificate in the way she did.
If I had a child of 12/13 who was asserting they were cat gender (what does that even mean), I'd be seeking help and therapy for the child exactly as I would if my child was obviously anorexic but convinced they were fat. The girls weren't abusive to the other girl, they simply believe the fact that sex is biological and immutable, and that a girl can't be a cat. Do you think those girls should be forced to believe in gender identities, or keep silent? Would you agree with them being compelled to believe in any other person's belief, say Judaism or reincarnation? Should atheists never say they don't believe in any gods for fear of offending those with religious beliefs?

No I think (just as I thought when teaching racial equality to children whose parents were racist) that you tell the child that within the school environment they should treat everyone with consideration, and respect, and accept their equality. That means not calling them "crazy" saying they need mental help or should be in an asylum or denigrating them in any other way.
Your views may be anything you wish, but if they are permitted to make another child uncomfortable then that is not acceptable and the school will have to take action.

What a horrible though that my granddaughter may be subject to this at the age of 9! Far too young in my opinion, but the world has changed, and not for the better in my view ....

Having said that, my sex education in the 1970's (in a female only school, I would be 11) was an elderly, we she looked about 80 to us, PE teacher who sat us all down and said to us "Girls, very soon your bodies will change, and then you will need a bunny".

Some of had obviously started our periods by then, but actually not that many but we all knew what it was and that it would happen. What we didn't realise at the time was what a 'bunny' was - until we cottoned on what the rusty white thing was in the toilets - a 'Bunny Incinerator'! We all went straight on to Tampons as soon as possible!

Incidentally saying someone is "crazy" or needs "mental help" is abuse.

No I think (just as I thought when teaching racial equality to children whose parents were racist) that you tell the child that within the school environment they should treat everyone with consideration, and respect, and accept their equality. That means not calling them "crazy" saying they need mental help or should be in an asylum or denigrating them in any other way.
Your views may be anything you wish, but if they are permitted to make another child uncomfortable then that is not acceptable and the school will have to take action.

I suspect that I would feel uncomfortable sitting next to someone who identified as a cat, depending on how that manifested. It would be distracting at best. Would that be taken into consideration?

Race, sex and other immutable characteristics should absolutely be respected, as should religion - which means amongst other things that there should be single-sex facilities.

Pupils of whatever sexuality should be treated the same, whether they are gay, straight or bi. Some aspects will be noticeable, and others not, but it shouldn't matter in a school context beyond it being unacceptable to treat people as different because of it.

Children who believe that they are the opposite sex should not be bullied for it (nobody should be bullied for any reason), but I don't think that gaslighting other children into having to say that they are seeing something that they are not - ie a boy is a girl or vice versa, and that applies to seeing a child and not a cat. I'm not saying that anyone should say that the child belongs in an asylum, but nor do I think that it is 'despicable' to say 'no, you are really not a cat'.

Race, sex and sexuality are different things, but they are constantly conflated on here, which is frustrating in the extreme. Is identifying as an animal now joining the conflation?

Maybe our teachers could improve our kids education if the simply *identified as teachers*and concentrate on teaching and leave politics out of it.

Glorianny

Rosie51

I fully agree she doesn't handle it well, but possibly she has had little training and very little preparation for dealing with such things. then she shouldn't pontificate in the way she did.
If I had a child of 12/13 who was asserting they were cat gender (what does that even mean), I'd be seeking help and therapy for the child exactly as I would if my child was obviously anorexic but convinced they were fat. The girls weren't abusive to the other girl, they simply believe the fact that sex is biological and immutable, and that a girl can't be a cat. Do you think those girls should be forced to believe in gender identities, or keep silent? Would you agree with them being compelled to believe in any other person's belief, say Judaism or reincarnation? Should atheists never say they don't believe in any gods for fear of offending those with religious beliefs?

No I think (just as I thought when teaching racial equality to children whose parents were racist) that you tell the child that within the school environment they should treat everyone with consideration, and respect, and accept their equality. That means not calling them "crazy" saying they need mental help or should be in an asylum or denigrating them in any other way.
Your views may be anything you wish, but if they are permitted to make another child uncomfortable then that is not acceptable and the school will have to take action.

So do you think the teacher should have respected the rights of the girls to say they don't believe in gender identity, instead of calling them despicable and saying they should go to another school? Their beliefs are equally worthy of consideration and respect. I do hope you're not equating believing scientific facts with being rascist. As Doodledog pointed out, people who say homosexuality is same gender attraction rather than same sex attraction could be considered homophobic. It was actually funny that she said there were lots of genders, then lists only transgender and agender.

Do you think the girl should be affirmed in her cat gender by the school? Do you honestly think it's healthy to reinforce such a belief that she's really a cat? Where does it stop.....with a cat name, with cat food and a litter tray or her licking herself clean and meowing instead of speaking? It quickly becomes quite farcical.

Your views may be anything you wish, but if they are permitted to make another child uncomfortable then that is not acceptable and the school will have to take action. So no child should feel uncomfortable? Where there are opposing views being expressed you will often find discomfort. Whose discomfort takes precedence? I don't mean just in this case.

When a group of Muslim parents refused to send their children to school in Birmingham because they believed the school was over promoting homosexuality they were not branded as homophobic.
Yet if a pupil questions teachings they are homophobic.

Sex education in UK schools but not as we knew it!
Education is devolved in Wales.

Although they did film Sex Education around the Wye Valley.

Good points Doodledog I was typing (very slowly) when you posted.

As a former school Gov I would utterly ignore anything the DM has to say and ALL parents get the opportunity to remove their child from Sex Ed. I have no issue with correct terminology for sexual practices and correct names for body parts and most teenage kids know more about sex than I’ve ever known

Today 12:25 Sago

When a group of Muslim parents refused to send their children to school in Birmingham because they believed the school was over promoting homosexuality they were not branded as homophobic.
Yet if a pupil questions teachings they are homophobic.

Actually they branded as homophobic and they were, whether because of cultural or religious beliefs is almost irrelevant. They live in a multi cultural non-discrimatory country where homophobia is a crime, unlike some of their cultural countries where homosexuality is a crime

Incidentally saying someone is "crazy" or needs "mental help" is abuse.

And so is a teacher telling her pupils that they're homophobic and despicable. Who's the adult here?

So not that long ago a teacher didn't have her contract renewed and it was suspected that the reason was because she'd referred to her pupils in a girls school as girls. She was also required to apologise to her students in front of the Head, and yet a teacher in another school can tell her pupils they're homophobic and despicable, and that's OK.

CheersMeDears

^Incidentally saying someone is "crazy" or needs "mental help" is abuse.^

And so is a teacher telling her pupils that they're homophobic and despicable. Who's the adult here?

I have said she didn't deal with it well-what more can I say? Teenage girls are skilled at finding a teacher's weak spots and targeting them. This altercation was obviously planned and recorded. The teacher's gender training was probably a short session during a staff meeting, or an hour of her (probably) 54 hour week. Then she is expected to deal with these things and condemned because she doesn't do it perfectly.
All I can say is "you try it."

Smileless2012

So not that long ago a teacher didn't have her contract renewed and it was suspected that the reason was because she'd referred to her pupils in a girls school as girls. She was also required to apologise to her students in front of the Head, and yet a teacher in another school can tell her pupils they're homophobic and despicable, and that's OK.

Lots of teachers don't get their contract renewed. Lots of suppositions are made about "Why?". Generally it's because there isn't the money to keep them on

If the reports of the recorded conversation are true that was bullying on a massive scale by the teacher and she should be formally disciplined. She is the adult with peer and she used that the frighten and humiliate.

Regardless of the subject matter the whole tone of the teacher’s comments is totally unacceptable. Calling a student despicable, and telling them to go to another school amongst other aggressive remarks is unprofessional and should not be tolerated.

peer =power

Insisting that she apologise, and do so in front of the Head isn't a supposition though, so I'm waiting what action if any, will be taken with this other teacher.

My daughter is a primary school teacher, there is one very important reason and aspect for teachers helping children, however young, to learn the anatomical names of human body parts and that’s safeguarding - if little Jonny or Janet comes into school stating their “noo noo” hurts or someone touched their “bam bam” if teachers are not sure what this applies to it’s hard for them to work out if any potential issues are occurring. Also, sadly, there are still pre pubescent boys and girls who don’t understand about puberty and the very real, and sometimes, scary changes which will take place to their bodies and minds. Yes consent needs to be explained multiple times as does feeling comfortable to say no

Smileless2012

hmm So not that long ago a teacher didn't have her contract renewed and it was suspected that the reason was because she'd referred to her pupils in a girls school as girls. She was also required to apologise to her students in front of the Head, and yet a teacher in another school can tell her pupils they're homophobic and despicable, and that's OKconfused.

Neither is acceptable

Glorianny did you miss my reply to you at 12.25? I should have added that of course you don't call her crazy (and I don't think they did directly to her) but yes I do think the girl needs mental health help which is what they said. Having a delusion that you're a cat is not substantially different to having a delusion that you're Napoleon or King.