Sex education in UK schools but not as we knew it!

Cossy

As a former school Gov I would utterly ignore anything the DM has to say and ALL parents get the opportunity to remove their child from Sex Ed. I have no issue with correct terminology for sexual practices and correct names for body parts and most teenage kids know more about sex than I’ve ever known

The problem is this ideology has permeated all areas of the curriculum. I read this weekend of a child whose school had agreed with his parent’s request that he not be included in PHSE lessons due to “gender identity” ideology being taught.
Lo and behold, in a lesson about citizenship, the child was told that failing to agree with another individual's chosen “gender identity” was against British values and not being a good citizen.

They have this sort of stuff in the state schools here which might be the reason so many are sending their kids to private schools and many more are home schooling. It is relatively easy to homeschool here, they don’t seem to be as on your case as some other countries.

BeverleyJB

Cossy
As a former school Gov I would utterly ignore anything the DM has to say and ALL parents get the opportunity to remove their child from Sex Ed. I have no issue with correct terminology for sexual practices and correct names for body parts and most teenage kids know more about sex than I’ve ever known
The problem is this ideology has permeated all areas of the curriculum. I read this weekend of a child whose school had agreed with his parent’s request that he not be included in PHSE lessons due to “gender identity” ideology being taught.
Lo and behold, in a lesson about citizenship, the child was told that failing to agree with another individual's chosen “gender identity” was against British values and not being a good citizen.

BeverleyJB

I’m not completely sure what you mean by ideology - subjects on the curriculum do cross over both at Primary and Secondary schools. The real issue here is that all teachers can teach (or should teach) are facts based on the set pre-approved curriculum, they’re given very little wriggle room in many schools to “choose” what to include and what not to and teaching in school does have reflect what happens in society - damned if they do, damned if they don’t ! It doesn’t mean teachers agree but they little choice and I’m sure most of here would agree that the whole gender identification etc is a minefield and it’s better it’s openly discussed and understood by older children. There was a time people didn’t agree with any sex education at all in schools whilst at the same time shying away from discussing and explaining it within their own families

Rosie51
Given that the teacher in question states as fact there are three sexes I don't think she is qualified to teach anything to do with sex. I listened to the recording yesterday and her attitude towards the girls was so rude and dismissive. I think she's definitely been 'Stonewalled' and is just parroting the mantras.
Glorianny
She's trying to teach acceptance, diversity and equality in the face of very real and obvious prejudice.
I fully agree she doesn't handle it well, but possibly she has had little training and very little preparation for dealing with such things.
She’s teaching a lie and you are excusing it.
The problem is that some still parrot the idea that sex and gender are the same. This leaves children even more confused about what they are hearing. 

A factual you are male or you are female is a start. The idea that girls can want to be a boy or that they feel like a boy can be introduced together with the factual evidence.

Telling children you can be male and female or neither male nor female, is just a lie. Are some adults really happy to lie to children?

Desire to dress ‘like a boy’ or ‘have a boy’s haircut’ is not difficult in this era, but is worrying because it is using sexual stereotyping.


As they get older, they can learn about the physical steps or chemical steps they can take to fulfil their feelings, whilst still understanding that they will remain male or female. They can learn about the future impacts on their lives, of any decisions they make. 


Incidentally, boys do ask questions like What if you’re homosexual? What do they do?

Lathyrus

If the reports of the recorded conversation are true that was bullying on a massive scale by the teacher and she should be formally disciplined. She is the adult with peer and she used that the frighten and humiliate.

Regardless of the subject matter the whole tone of the teacher’s comments is totally unacceptable. Calling a student despicable, and telling them to go to another school amongst other aggressive remarks is unprofessional and should not be tolerated.

Agreed. Part of the problem here, from whichever way you look at it, is that teachers have had this thrust upon them, regardless of their specialisms. A few 'awareness-raising' training courses can't possibly cover everything that they might come across in the course of a career, and as with a lot of these things, as fast as they are learnt they go out of date. Then there is the fact that like the rest of us, teachers and other school staff will have differing views on the topic. Some will see affirmation as 'being kind', others will see refusal to agree that identifying as a cat is akin to homophobia or racism, and yet others will think that there are two sexes and children should accept that but choose for themselves how they 'present' without prejudice.

I can't help thinking about how the Joyce Grenfell teacher character would have dealt with this:

"Now, children - oh yes, children and other creatures. Quiet please! [claps hands]. Malcolm, stop pulling Tracey's hair - remember what we said yesterday about being kind? No, Tracey! I know what Malcolm did was unacceptable, but take your pencil out of her ear at once.

Simon, please don't purr so loudly - the other children want to listen to the story. Do I have to tell you again, Barbara? You can't cock your leg at the nature table! I don't care if you are a dog today - we don't do that sort of thing in the classroom, do we?

Now, where were we? Oh yes. Today's story is about Susan and Mary, who are Andrew's two dads. No, Ali - I don't know either, but you can't say things like that, whatever Mrs Awfully-Nice said in Biology. We need to keep those things separate, don't we, dear?"

Today 13:56 nanna8

They have this sort of stuff in the state schools here which might be the reason so many are sending their kids to private schools and many more are home schooling. It is relatively easy to homeschool here, they don’t seem to be as on your case as some other countries.

Nanna8 Not “learning” about something or discussing it doesn’t make the whole issue disappear though does it and whilst homeschooling might have a place it’s not the answer to everything and it can lead to children not being to cope in social situations and it should be closely monitored - some parents and their families fully embrace it and do amazing jobs, others not so much. Private education in the UK is very expensive especially at secondary level.

As a retired teacher of sex Ed in a secondary school we were honest with our students about intercourse. Remember that sexual abuse and sexual control is also to be considered here.
We also taught that the safest contraception was NO!
We emphasised relationships before sex so our students were in control of their rights and their responsibilities. If taught in a mature, enlightened way , then there is no need to demonise the subject. Not everyone has parents/ reliable adults to educate them hence students can pick up the wrong messages and info.
Not all teachers feel comfortable teaching this subject and good training is imperative.

Doodledog

I almost spat my tea out - that’s utterly hilarious 😂😂😂😊

Rosie51

Glorianny did you miss my reply to you at 12.25? I should have added that of course you don't call her crazy (and I don't think they did directly to her) but yes I do think the girl needs mental health help which is what they said. Having a delusion that you're a cat is not substantially different to having a delusion that you're Napoleon or King.

The point is that it is not the decision or the right of any child to say that another needs mental help. Like any other physical or mental attribute or problem it is a personal matter for the child and her family, and just as I wouldn't expect any child to demand of a child with sight problems "Are you blind?" or "You need your eyes tested" I wouldn't expect or allow any child to make comments about another child's mental health. That's part of teaching inclusion, the child is accepted as she is and without criticism.

Coming back to accepting an orthodox point of view, which is not a fact, scientific or otherwise, it occurs to me that my own schooling had facets of that and perhaps one has to live it to understand it. There were many things we were supposed to have a blind faith in just accepting dogma without question, for example the immaculate conception and the assumption of the Virgin Mary, to give maybe two examples. Any dissenting point of view in the classroom was met with a "get out".

How is it, 50 to 60 years on we appear to have regressed back to that absolute intransigence,when a boy aged 12 recently stated that he didn't believe that there were 72 genders he too in 2023 was told to "get out!" As with the catholic doctrine as taught all those years ago, these new orthdoxies are opinions, believed by some, that doesn't equate to the truth, just their truth, and we set a dangerous precedent closing down debate and a society that does that very thing is an illiberal one.

Some fundamentalist Christians who are creationists, shun the idea of evolution believe that the world is a mere 6,000 years old and would deny the existence of dinosaurs, is it right that they imbue pupils at their schools with their unscientific beliefs?.

It doesn't really mater what the mantra in question is, if it cannot be proved, then it should be open to debate and an opposing point of view.

Cossy

Doodledog

I almost spat my tea out - that’s utterly hilarious 😂😂😂😊

Likewise! I can hear Joyce Grenfell’s voice saying it!

Absolutely brilliant Doodledog 👏👏👏 I loved Joyce Grenfell, and you had her spot on

Glorianny I see you addressed the addition, but not the original post. To save you having to scroll back I'll paste it here:

So do you think the teacher should have respected the rights of the girls to say they don't believe in gender identity, instead of calling them despicable and saying they should go to another school? Their beliefs are equally worthy of consideration and respect. I do hope you're not equating believing scientific facts with being rascist. As Doodledog pointed out, people who say homosexuality is same gender attraction rather than same sex attraction could be considered homophobic. It was actually funny that she said there were lots of genders, then lists only transgender and agender.

Do you think the girl should be affirmed in her cat gender by the school? Do you honestly think it's healthy to reinforce such a belief that she's really a cat? Where does it stop.....with a cat name, with cat food and a litter tray or her licking herself clean and meowing instead of speaking? It quickly becomes quite farcical.

Your views may be anything you wish, but if they are permitted to make another child uncomfortable then that is not acceptable and the school will have to take action. So no child should feel uncomfortable? Where there are opposing views being expressed you will often find discomfort. Whose discomfort takes precedence? I don't mean just in this case.

I'm interested where you stand on these points.

I also do think that it needs to be taught that sex should be enjoyable and never uncomfortable or dissatisfying.

I do feel this is the key point for any teaching, and I would add to it, never painful or if you don't want to for any reason.

I think then that many contentious parts of sex education can be taught as things that some people do and information on what it is, such as oral sex, anal sex etc. but that if they are done violating any of the above, no-one has to do it.
I think something on the lines of 'only if it is enjoyable, not comfortable or painful, what you really want to do' should be repeated over and over again throughout the teaching. I am thinking of children who maybe being abused, and hiding it away because they've been told 'it's fine' or 'everybody does it' by their abuser. To hear this 'only if ...' might enable the child to tell someone. No need for lessons on how to do these activities, just what they are and what they are called.

I do think masturbation should be talked about in primary school. All those poor children in the past who were taught that it was wrong, if you were masturbating you were doomed to going to hell, to lose that part of your anatomy, that you should be ashamed!
These teachings are (I hope!) are well in the past, but I think it would be helpful for children to hear that it is a normal part of life and not shameful. Again no need for instructions on how to do it!

I can see a similarity to how schools nowadays teach religion. Even in the C of E primary school I worked in, other religions were taught well, but no-one was ever told that they SHOULD follow any religion, just what they were, the customs, beliefs etc. Couldn't sex education be like that? It could contain information on homosexuality, trans people, and even pornography too, not advocating it, but discussing it, how it (porn) presents men and women; how it is not necessarily realistic; the effects it can have on people. Again, as someone said above, MANY 12 year olds will have seen porn, either by chance, by choice or as part of abuse. Wouldn't it help if children had had a chance to discuss it with their class, especially if they are being abused?

Brilliant Doodledog! I can hear JG's voice too!

The teacher says "How dare you? You just really upset someone, saying things like [you] should be in an asylum.'

The girl responds: 'I didn't say that, I just said if they want to identify as a cow or something, then they are genuinely unwell, and they're crazy.'

"You were questioning their identity,' the teacher replies. 'Where did you get this idea from that there are only two genders?'

'I just said my opinion,' the pupil replies. 'If I can respect their opinion, can't they respect mine?' The teacher goes on to assert there are 'lots of genders' including 'transgender' and 'agender'.

She then links the girl's gender-critical attitude with 'homophobia', adding: 'It is not an opinion… if you don't like it, you need to go to a different school'.

The girl defends herself by saying she was respectful, but admits she felt compelled to ask her classmate 'how can you identify as a cat, when you are girl?"

In February, the trust was criticised over plans to 're-educate' children who make non-PC comments in the playground.

Hmmm.. I feel uneasy whenever I see the phrase "re educate", it reminds me of the Uyghurs being "re educated" for their religious beliefs in China.

Absolutely brilliant Doodledog
The best post I’ve read on this issue on any site 👏👏👏👏😂

Some topics always come up when people want a good grouse, and what should or should not be taught in schools is one of them.

Speaking as a teacher, I think most of us who teach or taught would greatly have preferred it if parents had told their children what they felt a child of any particular age needed to know about sex, the danger of perverts etc. but we knew very well that a lot of parents do not ever discuss sex or morality with their children, so we teachers were forced to deal with the subject, as and when appropriate.

Unfortuantely teaching materials tend to either be entirely biological in content, so no moral instruction is given, or couched in such coarse language that they offend both many parents and teachers, so sex education is a minefield for all concerned.

Teachers are supposed to deal with the subject, but have no actually guidance in how best to do so. This may not have mattered so much when the subject was left until senior school when a lot of children had either been told about sex by their parents or picked up a fair amount of knowledge on their own and had reached adolesence and were interested to know more.

Now it is a disaster, as children of six and seven onwards are supposed to be taught about sex, so I know of children of that age who have been badly frightened by too graphic descriptions of childbirth, puzzled by talk of periods or involuntary ejaculation, or completely missed the point of warnings not to let anyone touch their genitals, and like one little boy of my acquaintance completely refused to wash himself properly as teacher had said not to touch penis!

Great post Doodledog, you've outdone yourself.

Awesome Doodledog!

Yes good post DoodleDog. 😂

That teacher is all over Twitter, I listen to it at Lunch time, I couldn't belive it. I expect it's going to be a tricky few weeks for that Teacher?

That Teacher really got that conversation so wrong, edging on being a Bully, the young women were good not to roll over.

Not the last we have heard of this.

Yes great post Doodledog, made me , more than that laugh out loud! Your posts always nail it for me on gender issues.

I would not want my children having such lessons. It’s abhorrent. Just who decides this is normal, ask the average parent they do not want 9 yr old told this, parents should gather en masse to send a message loud and clear how inappropriate this is, what a stupid but to be expected comment saying it’s people that read the Daily Mail responsible for it.
Hope VS and others are contributing to the Guardians survival fund to keep the newspaper in print as it’s so successful. Every time I read an article it asks me for a donation.
Two teachers had to leave their jobs because tgey dared to say boys and gurls bodies change at puberty. If they had said if you have a high dose of chemicals pumped in to you and major surgical reconstruction and a battery to make it all appear to work to change gender that would have been acceptable I suppose, apart from the fact that after all that they could not reproduce. It’s a case if tge monkeys running the asylum.

That teacher could certainly learn a thing or two from her pupil couldn't she.

😁

Yes, she was brilliant.
Excellent post which I read, of course, in Joyce Grenfell style!

Apropos of the teacher/pupil conversation, it does appear that we are now living in the time of Jabberwocky! Lewis Carroll was born too soon to realise his wish of "if I could have a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't!"