Train fares, should they be subsidised?

You have to laugh. If only the whole country had good transport, like london. londoners can subsidise londoners. The rest of us would riot if we were asked to put our hands in our pockets for them

A rich person in London pays the same rate as a rich person in Liverpool, and poor people in both cities pay the same rate as one another too.

I don’t know about that Doodledog- I always thought the richest paid the least?
Somehow - don’t know how!

I’m suggesting that it’s untrue😀. People pay tax at the same rate across England but more goes to the SE per person than anywhere else.

Doodledog I thought London and the SE subsidised the rest of the Uk ? Are you suggesting this is unfair?

ronib

Doodledog well given the overpopulation of London and the SE, to emphasise - high population density of this area - it makes sense to have public transport in place.
I guess quite generous salaries and pensions plus private finance initiatives might have some impact on the tax payer.

I’m not sure why ‘the taxpayer’ should subsidise London though. If there are more service users the routes will be more cost-effective. It is areas such as Cumbria or rural Devon that should be subsidised - places where there are fewer routes and higher prices.

Thanks MaizieD that is a very good report to read.

ronib

The taxpayers alliance estimates £1300 cost per taxpayer for railway subsidies 2023.
Just saying….

The 'taxpayers' alliance, Ronib is a right wing, opaquely funded, think tank that believes in privatisation of all public services (and has no interest at all in common or garden taxpayers, it just lobbies for tax cuts for the wealthy). I wouldn't give any credence to anything it says.

I would suggest that if rail prices didn't have to include an element of profit for paying shareholders' dividends that would be a start to reducing costs to the user.

I'd also suggest that government should be pricing in the environmental benefits, health benefits, and the costs of initiatives needed to counter climate change, if it were looking at subsidising rail ticket prices.

A good integrated public transport system is badly needed in the UK but we won't get it while private providers are competing for profit.

As for the railways, this report from Manchester University came out several years ago. It makes interesting reading.

hummedia.manchester.ac.uk/institutes/cresc/sites/default/files/GTR%20Report%20final%205%20June%202013.pdf

Doodledog well given the overpopulation of London and the SE, to emphasise - high population density of this area - it makes sense to have public transport in place.
I guess quite generous salaries and pensions plus private finance initiatives might have some impact on the tax payer.

ronib

The taxpayers alliance estimates £1300 cost per taxpayer for railway subsidies 2023.
Just saying….

And where is that £1300 being spent? My guess is that as usual it will be concentrated in London and the SE, and the rest of the country will get very little.

Germanshepherdsmum

A lot of people travelling by train are high-earning commuters, as I was. My train fares were very expensive but why should others subsidise them?

A lot of not-very-well-paid people can't afford to live in London (for example), but their services are still required.

We havnt got a good bus or rail system our local station doesn't accommodate wheelchair users ,has no ticket office it's up a very steep hill with no bus going up to it.,most of the fast trains don't stop here and fares are high.😒

All public transport free in Luxembourg.

The taxpayers alliance estimates £1300 cost per taxpayer for railway subsidies 2023.
Just saying….

My DH has a 'disabled' railcard and what we hadn't realised is that if someone (Me!) travelled with him, then my fare is also at the reduced rate. We only found out because the man in the ticket office informed us!

Trains and all essential utilities should never be privatised.

Plan ahead to get cheap fares, get travel cards for Pensionners, be prepared to travel a bit later to get better fare, etc.

It is a political choice, like so many. Some countries choose to keep in public ownership, and to subsidise in so many ways- bravo.

Interesting ayse as having bought a ticket from a ticket office I had no trouble claiming a refund from Cross Country when my return train from Bournemouth was cancelled. I am told a 100% refund of the return journey (the next train was an hour later)will be in my bank account within ten days. Although the ticket was bought from an office the claim was online and very simple( although I had to get help from a family member to attach a photo of the ticket). Another reason for using a ticket office.

Doodle dog 👍

I’ve also had problems when trying to get a refund after buying online! The more stuff that is online only, the worse any customer service becomes. Trying to get any sense out of online “help”/chat bot never works. Even when you manage to find a customer service line it seems to take hours to answer. THEN they argue about why you didn’t or could n’t do it online.

DD2 works in software development and is of the opinion that many companies do not wish to deal with customer complaints. I agree with her.

I couldn't agree more, ayse.

When ticket offices go it will be even worse. A few years ago I was going on a weekend away with a friend who was getting on the train a few stops after me. It was impossible to book seats together online, but we were able to do it in the ticket office.

I am going away in August, and the ticket office found me seats from A to C via Station B, and advised me to buy separate tickets (ie A-B and then B-C) even though they are for the same seat and I'm not getting off, as it saved a chunk of money. I suspect that things like this, and the discount for group travellers mentioned by Greenfinch will go by the board with the demise of ticket offices, and they could make the difference between people deciding to travel or not.

Trains may be on strike today anyway. I know they are in some areas.

When the railways were allowed by Act of Parliament one of the conditions was that cheap travel should be provided for the working class. It led to the development of new holiday towns such as Blackpool and Whitley Bay and the holiday week for factory workers. I fail to understand why in the modern era we have an expensive and almost unusable railway network. Public transport should be available to the vast majority of people. We need a joined up public transport system where trains and buses link up and are affordable.

Yes, we do have a car but I use public transport as often as is possible. It’s crazy that a rail journey costs more than a plane flight!

Agreed Pittcity. Last week we travelled by train we three others. Only the two of us had senior railcards so I asked for two seniors and three adult returns. The very knowledgeable lady at the ticket office who has worked there for years explained that if all five were travelling together we all get a third off. How would I have known that had she not been there?

Train fares are too complicated and confusing. Simplification would help.

fancythat

People complain about HS2. A lot.

Think I am a bit confused by this thread.

For me andd people living rural, it is miles of car journey before even getting to a train station.

HS2 is a different argument. This is about making existing travel easier and cheaper, and maybe reopening more local lines.

You are right that it should be easier to get to stations, and improving bus services would help with that. As things stand, services are often so bad that anyone who can drive does so, which reduces the viability of routes, which in turn limits the options of those who don't (or don't want to) drive.

There are also huge geographical inequalities. As has been said, in London, people over 60 get free travel, and travel is subsidised anyway for younger people. Elsewhere, bus passes are not available to anyone under pension age, and even that is under review. Rural areas often have no services at all, and people struggle to get to doctors, libraries, shops etc, and to visit friends and family.

Yes, there are some journeys that can be done reasonably cheaply with the use of rail cards and judicious choices of tickets, but the days of being able to decide to go somewhere and be able to do it on public transport are long gone. When I see episodes of Miss Marple or Poirot, I always think that things have gone backwards since every village had a railway station that would take you to somewhere that would link to where you wanted to be, even if you did stand a good chance of being murdered when you got there, if not on the train itself.

We both went by train to Glasgow recently using our Saltire card it was under £10 return for both.A couple on the train were told about a childrens scheme where its anywhere for £1 over the summer ,she was delighted she had 3 kids with her all about 10 -14.We still have ticket collectors on the train and although we dont use it often we've been very happy with the service and the cleanliness of the trains